EP99: Mark Bowden - How Your Body Language Affects Your Business

What's your body language?

Our guest, Mark Bowden, who was voted the number one body language professional in the world, has been fascinated most of his life with visual imagery and the way other people perform and how they affect our behaviour.

He's passionate about giving people the most influential and persuasive communication techniques to stand out, win trust and build credibility every time they communicate.

Today, his work has reached millions of people and presented to many of the most innovative organizations in the world.
During this interview, you'll discover...

  • The importance of being persistent in what you want to be good at

  • What are the 2 types of body language and how they influence people

  • Why thinking a little bit different than others will benefit you

To learn more about his website, visit here.

For his LinkedIn page, click here.

For his Twitter, discover here.

To buy his book, Truth & Lies: What People Are Really Thinking, go here.


Michael Palmer: 01:20 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I'm your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a treat. Our guest was voted the number one body language professional in the world. He's written several books on the topic. His most recent book is truth and lies. What people are really thinking. He's passionate about giving people the most influential and persuasive communication techniques to stand out when trust and build credibility every time they speak. Mark Bowden, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Bowden: 01:50 Michael, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

MP: 01:55 Well, I am so excited to have you here because I think our audience is going to absolutely love the content and the work that you've literally been spending your life researching, understanding and now teaching so many others around the world. Uh, I'm just pumped because I think it's going to make a massive difference for them, their lives and as well they're businesses. But for four, we get into some of these questions I have for you. Tell us a little bit about yourself up until now.

MB: 02:26 Yeah, so a, I mean a lot of people often say, so how did you get into this world of, of body language? Because they're thinking that that can't be a usual track. I didn't see the course at college on that. That would make me a, uh, a body language expert. And it's true that there isn't a usual course for, for any of us though. Some of us go through the kind of, uh, areas of, of, um, uh, investigation bureaus and, you know, FBI, CIA, that kind of area. I'm, I'm, I'm not quite the same as that. Uh, I was just obsessed as a kid with, uh, animal behavior, especially marine biology. Uh, you know, how, how a fish behave and, and then it progressed on as I got a little bit older into human beings, I was quite interested in how human beings perform, why they do that, why, why I do certain things, why they react in a certain way.

MB: 03:15 So I think there were issues of control that, you know, why do people react in certain ways to what I did? Could I control their behaviors? Could I control my own? And so I've just been really fascinated for most of my life with visual imagery. You know, the, the pictures around us essentially that are out there, including ourselves and, and the way other people perform. Those, those moving pictures of people and objects and things in the world around us and how they affect our behavior. And is there anything that we can do about it? Can we make our worlds better for us, more productive for ourselves by having some understanding of how we're affected by the way other people move around us and the way we move. So there's, this is, you know, kind of how I got here today on a podcast with you.

MP: 04:11 Wow. I remember seeing you speak actually at Tedx Toronto and I, they had an incredible B roll. I don't think that's what they call a little video about you and, and you were, you told a little bit about yourself and you've, you've got a wide variety of experiences in your life leading up to, to what you're, you're now doing, which is you're, you're teaching this all over the world. What's been your biggest take away from just studying it as you know, your own general interest to actually now teaching others how to understand this and use it in their lives and business?

MB: 04:55 Yeah, that's a really good question. I think I've got a couple of answers to that that come immediately to mind. One is that if you want to get really good at something and really understand it on the whole, I think you've just got to be really persistent. You've just got to keep on investigating, keep on exploring, keep on getting more and more knowledge. Just keep on being persistent and never give up. That pursuit of understanding pursuit of more knowledge and especially look in areas that wouldn't be obvious. Look in the areas for information that others in your area aren't looking. I think if I've done anything that's changed, you know, my area of expertise, this world of, of body language, what I've done is think about it in a very different way than most other people. I mean, first of all, I started thinking about it in a way of how you can use body language on purpose to stand wind trust, credibility.

MB: 05:58 So it was, it was how you can use body language rather than how you can read body language. And then when I finally moved onto this area of people really wanting to know about how can you read other people's body language again, I started thinking about it in a different way and saying, well, it's really about the way you think about reading that's ultimately going to help you understand how to read people's body language better. So this, this last book that I wrote with my coauthor Tracy Thompson, truth and lies, what people are really thinking, I think it's actually really a book on critical thinking disguised as a book on body language. So I think there's two answers to the question. There is be persistent and see if you can think a little bit differently than others. Now you know, that's, that's interesting. Just to the fact that it's critical thinking about, it's actually like, yeah, it's pay it, let's pay attention.

MB: 06:57 That's the first thing I'm like today. I didn't wake up thinking what? What's my body language, right. Number two, I didn't wake up thinking about what other people's body language telling me. So this, this is actually a way, it's actually two very powerful tools that have been sitting in the toolbox that for many listeners I'm sure have not been paying any attention to that can be very, very important in winning or losing and in their lies in business. Right?

MP: 07:20 Well, yeah, absolutely.

MB: 07:23 But look, there's no reason why you should wake up in the morning and pay more attention to this. Look, you're alive. You managed to wake up. That's a good thing. Yeah. You know, you've got to think about yourself as a, if you're out there and you're, you're a, you're a bookkeeper. Look, my guess is is your business is doing okay? It's doing okay.

MB: 07:50 You know, hopefully you're not on the, on the brink of collapse or otherwise, you know, maybe you know, get off this podcast and start doing something about it. You know, your, your, your, your listening to this podcast, my guesses is because things are going pretty well, but you'd love it if they could go even better. And you're saying to yourself, well, what are one or two really nice, simple, easy to execute things that I could do that would really optimize or increase the business that I'm doing or, or the work, how I'm producing the work. And what I'm saying is, is well, thinking about your body language in a more conscious way, that's something that could really increase how easy it is, for example, for you to get clients and, and, and, and for you to work with the people around you. Be that, um, your team members, your employees, and your clients and the wider community. So, so look, you know, you don't have to think about body language at all. You will survive and you'll keep on going. It's when you want things to go even better. When you want to maximize your abilities, that's when you really want to start thinking about it.

MP: 09:05 Beautiful. Let's start. Let's start thinking about it now. I love and I know from having conversations and listening to you in the past, I've learned always learn so much every time because it's a, it's a big subject. There's a lot of different things going on and our listeners as bookkeepers have, you know, I would say that it's not their number one thing to go out and have sales conversations or to be in networking situations can be it's, it's just not their normal state for many. So from a body language point of view, what can you recommend for them?

MB: 09:40 Yeah, so let's keep it really simple because simple stuff that has a massive effect, it's easy to execute and you get big payback from it. So we keep this really simple for you. Let's just say there's open body language and there's closed body language, there's open body language and there's closed body language and whether you're with a client or you're networking or you're out in your general community and you're just thinking, how could I perform on purpose in such a way that might leave me open to having better conversations for people asking me more about what I do and me giving them a really great answer that that attracts me to tracks them to thinking about me as a potential service provider for them or help for them. Where you want to be thinking about the open body language now, what does that look like?

MB: 10:32 Think about a cold day and you come in from the cold and there's a fire there. What's the kind of behavior your body does in front of a fire? Well, my guess is if it's cold day, you open up your, your jacket a little bit. If you're wearing one, you open up your body, you open up your hands, you bring your hands up more to belly area where the, you know, it can take in that warmth and that heat into the palms of the hands and into the belly area. You're opening up that torso area. You starting to smile a little bit because of that lovely warmth. And that's what I'd say is open body language and think about the voice and the conversation that's now going with that. Now let's think about closed body language. You've come in from the cold, but it's just as cold inside as it is outside.

MB: 11:29 And so you've crossed your hands in front of that belly area. You've tightened up your body, you've tucked your elbows into your torso there, your Chin is tucked down to more towards your, your sternum area and your shoulders are hunched up and now you're having this kind of conversation with the people around you who are all right. So trinet's keep themselves warm in this cold environment. And that for me is closed body language. The more you veer towards the open body language, the more open you're going to be to other people, the more they'll mirror that open body language and the more open they're going to be to you. So it's very simple, open body language, closed body language.

MB: 12:27 Such a great visual and something that every single listener I think kids think about before they walk in the door to either a sales opportunity or to a networking situation is are you walking into that warm fire or are you walking into the colds outdoors?

MP: 12:44 Absolutely. Very simple image to think about. Everybody can imagine it in their head. Anybody now can start as I was going through that, that kind of talk about it, you know, go back to that, play that again and perform that and notice can you do it on purpose? Is there an image in your head about that? Remember what that body language looks like and now you know, just to humor me, you just to humor you now just try and practice that a little more with people. I mean, I mean practice it like a doctor practices it on, on, on real people, you know, doctor's practice, they practice on real people. They don't do it on their own with nobody. They practice on real people, which means yes, absolutely. There's a, there's a risk that there is a, there is a risk to it, but you've gotta, you've gotta trust me that if you try out this open body language, you will only see great results. The risk is actually very, very low for you. Nothing can really go, go, go, uh, go wrong around this. So

MP: 13:50 I think the big risk is a risk might be that someone would actually give you a hug.

MB: 13:54 Yeah, absolutely. Right. That's a big risk. Yeah. The big, the big risk is, is you might get more clients and you might have a little bit more work to do, to take on more people. That's it. You know, that, that's a, that's always a risk. But as you say, simple to do, easy to think about. You know, the key now is, is go and do it. Go out and, and, and do it. You know, just a little story about, about, uh, this, uh, people often ask me, you know, what are the books that I should read about, you know, networking and, and getting on with people and winning more business. And, and I always say to them, well, you know, one of the great books is how to win friends and influence people. You know, and, and they, they often go, oh yeah, no, I, I've read that.

MB: 14:40 And I always say to them, well, yeah, you might have read it, but did you do it? Because there's a huge difference between reading something, maybe even understanding it, but then going on purposely doing what it says and, and what I'm going through, uh, you know, with everybody today is practical help that they have to do with their bodies. So if you like that idea of open body language, my best advice now is look, just go and do it. Do it immediately and get the results out of it. That's great advice. And that's the challenge for everyone. Just go and try this out. It's so simple. Big Opportunity as well. And I love how simple it is. And how big of an impact it can have. And then what, what would be interesting mark is to share like what, what would they be looking? Because the other side of what you do is looking at observing other people's body language.

MP: 15:43 Tell us a little bit about that side of it. Like if I'm all of a sudden now open, I'm walking into the fire that's gonna re that's gonna likely create a new response with the people that I'm, I'm greeting and meeting because I'm open. What should I look for in and the people that I'm greeting and meeting? Absolutely. And that's a great thought because you need to now switch on your radar to really notice the difference in the response in other people. Because the more you notice, the good response that you get, the more you're going to start to perform these open body languages without, you know, having to put so much conscious effort into it. It's always going to be something of a conscious effort because you're going into an environment that is a little more tricky to navigate that, that, that you know, meeting strangers or in that business environment where you're looking for new business and there is the opportunity of, of an element of, of not succeeding.

MB: 16:44 Essentially there's risk there. So you've always got to do it on purpose, but you've got to look out for the positive responses that people give you in order that your brain can learn that this is a great thing to start doing more automatically. So what will those positive responses look like? Here's what I want you to look out for. I especially want you to look out for people mirroring that open behavior. I want you to really see when you approach people and you're really open with that body language. So I'm going to be really specific with you. You know, open palm gestures at naval height, opening up that naval area, that torso area, doing lots of open palm gestures, keeping your hands away from hanging down by your side, which is more what you do when it's a cold day. Elevating your hands, being more descriptive with your gestures.

MB: 17:40 You're going to see people doing the same back to you. They're going to be more open in that naval, that barrier belly area, that torso area. They are going to smile more around you will, you'll be smiling more. That's for sure. You don't need to do it on purpose. You'll find actually when you do that bigger warm open body language in the torso area, in the belly area, you start to naturally smile a lot, a lot more. So allow that to happen and allow yourself to see that inclination in other people and, and when you see that inclination in them to be more open, to smile more, there'll be talking more to you, you'll be talking more to them, you'll be more orientated, you know, to be facing there. And there'll be less kind of side on shoulder to shoulder kind of conversations. You'll be more exposed to them because it's warming when you're exposed to them, when you, you know, see that behavior happening.

MB: 18:46 Think to yourself, oh good, this is going well. You know, allow yourself to congratulate yourself around the results of this cause. You want to get this kind of positive association with you being warm with your body language and you receiving warm body language back. Is that a good description, Michael, of, of, of what you might say around that? MP: 19:05 Absolutely.

MB: 1:08 And what that, I mean it's a fast train to rapport and trust.

MP: 19:14 Absolutely. Absolutely. And you've got to realize this actually could be a really fast train, expect faster results on this than you expected because you're being really purposeful about this now. And you'll recognize in the rest of the work that you do when you're skilled at your work. You all have noticed that when you're skilled at your work and you know a technique that is real fast train, my guess is in the world and I'm not, obviously, I'm not a bookkeeper.

MP: 19:49 I have a great bookkeeper and my expectation is is that my bookkeepers, they have tools and techniques that they use. The, I don't know about that. I probably do their job. They've got tools and techniques that they use that get them to the end result faster. And then I probably look at those techniques and they go, well, I don't know why everybody doesn't know this. You know, this is so simple to use this technique to get to the end result faster. Well look, I'm giving you those, those, that simple tool and technique of open body language and really looking out for the open results. And because I'm giving you this technique, you've got to understand that you will get to your result faster and you need to be ready to be surprised by that and go, oh, this is actually really easy, really simple, you know, so look out for that speed. I love it.

MP: 20:52 We're going to have a lot of open conversations, body language in the next, a week after this episode, I'm sure. And hopefully for a long time after that. Let's talk a little bit about bringing this to networking and as well presentations. And when I, uh, we have a, a lot of our listeners go to networking meetings, continue continuously. And one of the, the ones that would be the most popular, uh, is business that working in international or BNI. And there's lots of presentations that need to happen. What can you arm our listener with in terms of using this techniques in their presentations? Short presentations are the longer ones.

MB: 21:36 Yeah. So here's what I would say about this. And, and just to let you know, I'm a little bit biased around band. I just because, uh, I, I was a member myself when I first started out around this, you know, trying to get my message across and, and win clients. And here's what I noticed about a business that worked international and the idea of giving, giving infomercials is what that really is through my understanding is when you give an infomercial, what you actually try to do is win trust and credibility with the other members of your group. Your less trying to tell them, I think about your product, your surveys, what you do, what you're trying to do is go, you know what? You can trust me, you can trust me and you can get into a longer conversation with me about what I would do for your referrals.

MB: 22:32 But ultimately what you're trying to do with those colleagues in the same chapter as you is to win trust and credibility and do that as quickly as you can. The faster you can escalate how much trust they have for you and that feeling of your credibility in your product, your service, whatever it is, the better. They're more likely to give you those referrals and trust. Giving you those referrals. So here's what I want you to do is the next time you go to a network meeting of any sort, I don't mind what sort it is. I want you to take your attention away a little bit from your infomercial in terms of the content of it just for a little while. Because my guest is, is you've put a lot of, a lot of attention to that content. And maybe you've, you've, you've listened to, uh, you know, podcasts about how to do infomercials and create content for those. Michael May, maybe, maybe you've had some, some, some podcasts for the bookkeepers around that potentially. So, so it's not that that's finished, but just take your mind away from that for a moment and all I want you to, the next networking

MB: 23:46 meeting you go to is concentrate on open, warm body language and go, it doesn't matter so much what I say because they're gonna know they can trust me and then go to no uncredible because of the open warm body language that I do. And the content will sort itself out. And if they didn't get my content, they're more likely just to come up to me afterwards and go tell me a little bit more about what you do because they're now genuinely trusting of you and they're genuinely more interested in you. So again, I'm, I know I'm kind of ringing the same bell again and again, but it really is this simple is go back to open body language with people and concentrate on that just for one moment and see the results that you get from that. Does that make sense to you, Michael? It makes great sense and I love the ringing of the bell.

MP: 24:48 It's a great ring. Excuse me. Um, but I was, as you were sharing, I was getting goosebumps because I think that angle, this is really a completely fresh way to think about, you know, an elevator speech or an Info mercial on yourself in that really getting to the core of it. I love the thinking. It is, the whole point is to have people have trust in you and see you as credible such that they'd want to engage with you. I think often people do think too much about the content and the and the the talk or the presentation and not enough on body language, which is why we wanted you on the podcast because you're an expert here. But this is such a valuable piece in terms of fast train coming back to the good old fast train. I mean anybody who's not an a BNI, I paid incredible organization, incredible results. I mean if you want to grow your business, it's a place to go. But fast train when you join, if you use Mark's philosophy, I think you're going to get to results so much more fast that that you're going to surprise again, surprise yourself.

MB: 26:02 Absolutely. It will. Look, I just want to agree with you that Michael, you know I've got, I've got no shares in BNI as I'm sure you haven't. I've just been in a, in a chapter and it's worked really, really well and I've noticed it work for lots of people. So, yeah, if you, if you're not part of that organization or something very, very similar, you really should get involved because it's a great way of not only getting support around the work that you do in a bunch of colleagues cause it can be a bit a bit lonely if you're a solo preneur or you're just working with a small organization and you're out there kind of doing everything and trying to get everything done. There is that benefit as well. But it's a very, very powerful system for creating business and really getting your business moving.

MB: 26:49 And so the, I experienced that but what I did experience as well was how much concentration people put on the content of their infomercials rather than that idea of winning business. And it's an elevator pitch and I'm telling you the elevator is only going a couple of floors. It's not going 11 stories you haven't got very, very long. And my take on it was is what can I actually do in terms of helping people understand my product or service when the elevator goes two floors and I came to the decision of I can't get them to understand anything about it. What I can do is get them to trust me and then via that being climbed to want to talk to me afterwards to engage with me more or over time, you know, take a um, a business development meeting with me to really get down to look, what is it you, you actually do?

MB: 27:54 Cause I totally trust you and I would buy your product and service, but I have no idea what it is. You know, that was my, my objective is, is to say there's nothing that they can, they can never fully understand what I do in this elevator pitch, but they can get that feeling of I like this person, I trust them. I would trust them with a client, a friend, a colleague, a family member of mine. I want to refer them now what is it they're up to, what is it they do beautiful and so on. Open, warm. Say the three things again. It's open. Yeah, open, warm. I would, I would say what it comes across as in people's minds when you're doing that open, warm body language is they see you as trustworthy and credible, calm and assertive. Now, nobody ever in life said, you know, we're not going to work with that person.

MB: 28:54 They're too trustworthy. They're too credible. You can't have too much trust or credibility. Nobody ever said, you know, they were a little too calm and assertive. We can't work with them. They're just too common. Assertive. Now maybe too calm or they're too assertive. May Be, but those two factors together, Carmen, assertive, you can't have enough of that. Especially when you're a service provider. You know people are lacking something. They need your help. So if you can be the help provider who's trustworthy, credible, calm, and assertive, my guess is you are on the right lines for getting that person's business and keeping that person's business.

MP: 29:41 Love it.

MP: 29:49 Now you, you said that we don't want to focus too much on that traditional content information. We only got a couple of floors. What are some ideas around, you know, first of all, it's like we're walking into the fire. We're coming out of the cold, warm. We're going to have that in our minds. We're going to open up our palms, we're going to open up our, bring our hands up. Uh, so we're thinking warm. We're, we're acting like we're in front of the fire and what should be coming out of our, our, our mouths in terms of, is it stories, is it, uh, just a little tidbits. What, what would be great ways to, to, to build that credibility and trust?

MB: 30:29 Yeah. Lovely. So first of all, you want to think about questions rather than you having answers. You want to be thinking about questions. Okay. And maybe questions that are most likely to elicit from the other person. A sense of positivity. Yeah. So maybe I'm at a, at a, at a business meeting or you know, at, at a networking meeting and I approach somebody and I'm open and I'm, I'm warm. Okay. And instead of going, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm up bode and I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. And, and you know, here's my service and here's my, instead of doing that, I'm going to approach them and I'm going to say, so I'm just interested and curious what's going really well for you in your business right now. So I'm, I'm opening into getting them to tell me a positive story. Yeah. Now the reason I want to do that is I want to put them and me in a good mood.

MB: 31:37 Yeah. I want us to get on because if we can get on then there's a chance that they'll accept help from me. So I start with the positive story and they're going to start telling me, well, you know, this is going right and this is going right and here's what I'm going to say. I'm going to go on.

MP: 31:47 Interesting. Tell me more.

MB: 31:49 I'm just going to get them to talk more because here's what I know to be true after a while, as I get them to tell me more about this positive situation that they're in, they will start to tell me some of the barriers to that. They'll go, well, this is going really well and this is going really well and we've had a little lot of success with this. I have to say, you know, we, we have, we've had, we've come across a little bit of a barrier about they will tell me something that is stopping them getting what they want and the moment they go into that, I'm going to say so that's interesting.

MP: 32:34 Tell me more about that.

MB: 32:35 Okay. They spill the beans about what's going wrong. If you get them to spill the beans about what's going right, eventually they will get there. Now the K is don't jump in with solutions or your solutions. Get them to talk a bit more about the issues, the problems, the barriers. And the thing is is that their problems, their issues, their barriers. They may not be something that you can supply to, but maybe you know somebody who can and that's the way you're going to start winning trust and credibility from that verbal level is to show them, look, I'm connected. I know service providers who can help you in these areas. And even if you don't, you can show empathy. You can go, wow, yeah, I see how that would be a real, a real issue, a real issue. And then you can say, what are you already doing about this?

MB: 33:37 What are you doing to try and get over this barrier? So think less about yourself and think more about how can I investigate the other person and find out what situations they're in, what's going well for them, where they're seeing those barriers. Do I know people who can help with those barriers now? And again, you'll, you'll, you'll be able to say, well, you know what, it's interesting because you know, I have a product, I have a service that absolutely deals with and helps manage that issue that you have at the moment. Would you be interested in hearing a little bit more about that? Chances are they're going to go, well yeah, because, because there's already a Barrett and we're already a barrier, a problem that they've, that they've put up. So, so you know, the long and short of this, Michael, is that is I'm saying go for more questions about people. Start on the positive, let them there towards the negative, investigate the negative. They will tell you a lot via that and then let them know if you feel like you have contacts or a product or service yourself that you can help them through those obstacles. Does that, does that make sense, Michael?

MP: 34:49 It's makes such sense. That's the end. You've put it in such a, a vivid as well as simple framework that I think everyone listening can can take on and use and really a lot of what we've been talking about today is to take the focus off of ourselves and more onto others and, and to really relax into being with other people, which, which creates more the ability for people to relax and be with us.

MB: 35:19 Yeah, absolutely. Because that's where the, how they're working out, how they could work with you. Are they relaxed around you? Do they trust you? Do they feel it would be a good relationship? My guess is, is, is look, we know as, as a, you know, if you're a bookkeeper for example, there is a certain level, practice, and education that you will have had to have been through. Okay. And that's, that's kind of a given. So now we're working out, uh, do we like you? Do we think you'll perform well, uh, as a coworker for us as a provider to us? And, and so we're looking into the future around this. And our only way of telling the future is, how are you performing in front of me right now? Do I trust you right now? Are you inquisitive about me right now? Are you interested in me and my business right now?

MB: 36:13 Because this is our biggest predictor of will you be interested in me and my business and can I trust you with me and my business in the future? So I often say to people, one of their, the best networking skills is to start the work with the potential client immediately. And you start that work immediately by showing them, look, this is what it's like to be around me. If you with me in my office, if you visit me, if I visit you, if we go out and get lunch together to talk about business, it's going to be like this. It's going to be warm, it's going to be open, it's going to be easy. I'm going to be interested in you and the things that are barriers to you getting business. I'm going to celebrate your successes with you. A, you know, I'm going to be here for you and I'm going to be going to be a great ally and a great friend.

MP: 37:03 Beautiful Mark. You are a true ally and a true friend to so many people and I just, I think the listener can get that in this, in this very short interview with you. It's just the, the wealth of knowledge and the way you present things are just absolutely fantastic. I'm excited for our listeners to take some of this goal that you've given them to use in, in their business and their life with their relationships with their staff. I mean, it's, it's applicable everywhere, so lots of success is going to come. I believe out of this interview. We've only touched a very small amount of information and, and that's what I love about your content, mark. As you, you bring just simple things that can produce massive outcomes. But tell us a little bit about if listeners want to get more from you, which I'm almost positive they will, where can they go? What kinds of things do you have on tap that would be helpful to them to go and consume?

MB: 38:03 Yeah, so three areas to look at. Number one is to just put the word truth, plain, t, r, u, t, h, p, l a n e truth plane into a Google search and Apol comm. And get over to my website, truth plain.com. There's lots of video content on there that you can consume for free and lots to learn about there. So get yourself over there. The other thing is, is to just put the name Mark Bowden, Bowd, e n mark with a k into a Google search and our Paul Carmen and over to my youtube site. That's Mark Bowden. And uh, there's lots again of, of um, uh, video content for you to consume over there. Last places, get yourself over to truth and lies, truth and lies. Dot Ca Truth and lies.ca. Cause if you get yourself over to there and you sign up to the list for my new book, truth and lies, you will also get some free video training that you can't get anywhere else. It's not on Youtube, it's not on my other website. So you might want to get yourself over to there and, and pick up that free training on how to present yourself as a leader in your area. So some really great, uh, presentation skills there. So just three areas, truth, plain Mark Bowden, truth and lies. Dot. Ca. Check me out around those.

MP: 39:23 Beautiful and we'll have all of those links in the show notes and I highly recommend picking up both of your books, the content in there. I mean the, this is valuable content that I think is really, really well presented as you can tell from this presentation to today. This conversation really it mark is, is, uh, I mean there's just, I've heard so many other things. I have so many other questions that I'd love to share with the audience that I've learned from you over the years of following you and consuming your content, but I'll leave it up to our listeners to go and find it from you and, and to, uh, to enjoy it. It's valuable. Mark, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you again for being on the podcast today.

MB: 40:07 Oh, my pleasure. Always a pleasure. And so, you know, anytime you want to chat with me for your listeners, I'm here for you.

MP: 40:14 Beautiful. Would love to have you back. And that wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com. Until next time,

MP: 40:31 goodbye.