EP87: Diane Brochu King - How To Improve Your Interpersonal Skills


Often times, people tend to make a lot of assumptions and fail to ask more questions.That's why in order to avoid that, build your relationship and trust with your boss, employees or your clients.

Our guest, Diane Brochu King, who is a team builder and coach, has helped people understand where others are coming from. 

She guides her clients to see their most pressing challenges in a new dimension and the world in a new light, inspiring and enabling them to make better choices, identify new ways of relating and reacting, resolve problems, and collaborate for success.

Today, she has taught over 25,000 people to appreciate and learn new strategies for navigating the world of human relations.

During this interview, you'll also discover...

  • The importance of showing care to others by being interested

  • What are the ways to developing awareness

  • How to understand different types of people

To check out her website, visit here.

For her LinkedIn page, click here.

For her Facebook, explore here.

For her Twitter, discover here.

To learn more about The Platinum Rule book, check this out.

To investigate further into Ken Blanchard's Situational Leadership II model, click this link.


Michael Palmer: 01:36 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a good one. Our guest is a team builder and coach who wants to make sure you have a healthy, vibrant, and radically human workplace. She also helps clients improve their interpersonal skills and learn processes that will assist them in handling difficult conversations and presentations. Diane Brochu King, welcome to the podcast.

Diane Brochu King: 02:05 Hi Michael. Thanks for having me.

MP: 02:08 Well, you know what, it is our opportunity to have you and I really thank you for for being on the podcast today, but before we get too far down this conversation, tell us a little bit about your career leading up to this point and why you wanted to help people with their interpersonal skills and create better work environments.

DBK: 02:30 Okay. Well, I guess it all started when I, way back my background was in restaurant management, retail management, real estate sales and everything I did from university up was all around dealing with clients and very face to face and [inaudible]. Um, I did my, my education in social communications, everything up around human dynamics, group dynamics, understanding people. And I have this fascination with people and I see so many misunderstandings that come just from lack of awareness of others. And so it became my passion to want help people understand each other better, connect with each other better and become more successful because of that.

MP: 03:24 That's beautiful. I love that. I'm excited about this, the direction of this conversation, because I can almost hear our listeners ears perking up around, you know, miscommunication, right? Because that's, they're the people that they're dealing with and what they're doing. A bookkeeper's being very technical oriented, doing the right thing around the books and making sure everything's done correctly, whereas their client often, you know, has this chaos going over in their business. Not all the time, but it's kind of a classic scenario. And so what's happening is there's this really great opportunity for the breakdown in communication and a misinterpretation of what each party is trying to accomplish.

DBK: 04:05 Well, absolutely, and it's funny you raised that because I teach a lot about the difference between introverts and extroverts and generally this is, I know this is very stereotypical, but a lot of bookkeepers would tend to have more of a preference for introversion, which is more of the detailed people, the people who are more meticulous, the people who you can get things done in and do it in the right way. Whereas people like me who need bookkeepers tend to be more the extroverts. We're not the detail-oriented people. We're the ones that need the others to do it for us. And oftentimes it's where the miscommunications happen and it's where we can drive each other's nuts. But it is where there's so much value in understanding where we're coming from and the gift that we each bring. I know I rely on my bookkeeper because I, when I first started in business, I tried to do my own books. I thought, oh, that'd be a great challenge. I'll stretch myself. Ooh, I realize it's not so easy and I value what my bookkeeper brings to the table, but I know I can drive her nuts when she's trying to get the details from me.

MP: 05:14 Absolutely. You and I are very similar and from that standpoint and so I just love that you have this also understanding have been there, right? You have been the person that our listener goes and sometimes call it a rescue, right. Rescue you from this work that you've been trying to do and there's so many other business owners like you and I out there that are trying to do this themselves thinking it's, it's easy or that it's one thing that they should, you know, try and do and it just always ends up being the same conversation where they need the help of a bookkeeper to rescue them.

DBK: 05:52 Oh absolutely. Absolutely. And keep them in line and keep them organized.

DBK: 05:57 Right?

MP: 05:58 Yeah. But like you were getting to the, there is a, there can be a breakdown. There is the way that your bookkeeper communicates and the way that you, you know, what you like or don't like or trying to avoid or try to move towards. It's like they, they could say things that are gonna set you off or put you off and, and vice versa going back the same way. And so it's not a harmonious relationship.

DBK: 06:30 Exactly, exactly. And a lot of it is understanding where the others are coming from or where the other's coming from and speaking their language and making it easy. Just as a quick example, if we were to move into, you know, just the, the dimensions of introversion and extroversion and I'm thinking of my own case, for example, when my bookkeeper works with me, what I really value as an extrovert is when she makes it really easy for me to give her what she needs as opposed to writing out a big long email.

DBK: 06:57 Just give it to me bullet form, don't give me all the little details, just tell me what you need and I will give it to you in this format. Make it really easy. And we get along that way because she understands where I'm coming from and I value what she needs and I'll give her what she needs when she needs it because she's reaching, she's meeting me where I am. And that's the key to any kind of interpersonal relations is meeting people where they are, understanding what they need. Because when you meet people where they are, they're more open to your message, they're more open to listening to you and giving you what you need.

MP: 07:41 I think that's fascinating that meeting people where they are. I've heard of that before, but I don't think I've ever heard it in that context or way. And I'm almost thinking like I'm in a helicopter and I'm flying in and it's like, oh hey, here's someone I'm going to communicate. Let's go over there and land where they are and find out where they are. And from that, I mean it's a totally different context of being like, Hey, I'm over here. Come on over here. I want to communicate something.

DBK: 08:16 Yeah. Well, it's interesting because one of the things I always teach is that people don't care until they know you care and how do we show that we care? Are we showing care by being interested in them, by listening to what's important to them. Bye. Again, connecting with them where they are and then they're more open to come into where you are and it just makes a lot more sense. I mean I think of people for example who are, well let me give you a quick example. A number of years ago I was teaching ski instructors about the difference between introverts and extroverts in people who are more detail oriented versus people who are more action oriented and this was a series of three workshops. On the second night, the skiing truck instructor came to me and she said, I have to tell you this story on Saturday I had a private lesson with this gentleman and going up the chairlifts.

DBK: 09:17 He was asking a lot of technical questions and she said normally I would have just said, don't worry about it. I'll answer those when we get to the top of the hill. Just enjoy the scenery. It's a really nice day. She goes, but this time I realized that for him that was really important. So she answered his questions and she said by the time they got to the top of the hill, he was visibly more relaxed. And she said before, I wouldn't have done that because it wasn't important to her. But she gave him what he needed, which reduced his stress and he was able to get off the chair lift and just feel comfortable after that. And that's what I mean by meeting people where they are picking up the cues, the questions that they asked lead you to figure out, okay, that's valuable. That's important for them. Well might not be important for me, but it is important for them.

MP: 10:09 You know, that is such a great, I mean that is such a great story for any business that has them even themselves or their, their staff. I mean this is, this is, this could have gone two different ways and this just by simply answering the request of a, of a customer and saying, you know, I could easily say don't worry about it. Which is an answer or answering that question. I mean the long term effect on the, the, the perception that that skier has about that entire ski hill and everything that they do and that instructor, I mean it's transformational.

DBK: 10:51 Oh absolutely. Well two things. One, the person now has trust in that ski instructor or in the service provider or whatever, that that person cares about their needs because that ski instructor met that client where he was. So the caring shows that the trust chose x. You want to build a trusting relationship, you show you care. That's a way of showing that.

MP: 11:24 Let's flip this around a bit because often it's not going to be in, in a, in the scenario for our listener it's going to be the reverse. It's going to be, um, the, the, the, the bookkeeper in this situation is the person that's got this, uh, is talking about technical is down into those technical details and the, the small business owner or entrepreneur likely is, is more wants to just the short and the sweet and I'm not interested. How do you flip that around and are the, because almost like saying, I'm not going to tell you as much because they need to check-in and find out how much do you want to know about how this all works here.

MP: 12:03 Okay. And you've just hit the nail on the head. It's asking each individual how much do you need to know or how much do you want to know in what format would you like to give me the information? Do you want me to ask you, just send me things in bullet form. Do you want me to send you a table? What is the best way that I can get information from you? And it's the tree, each individual individually. It's getting to know each of their needs in each of the ways that they like to communicate and give information. For some people it's checklist. Give me a checklist and I will check it off as I do it. Give me bullet forms, um, give me a, but it's asking each client in which way can I make it easier for you to give me what I need?

DBK: 12:55 So it's really checking in and I think this is where, you know, our listener here often we talk about building system driven businesses. And I would say that for the most part, our, our listeners or our listeners who are building system driven businesses. And so to put this into a system, it's literally, you know, every conversation that you have with a new customer should have a few of these questions to sort of go and meet them at their as a reminder, right? It's like almost not a script, but it's like, you know what, I want to go and check-in and land in at where they're at and get a sense of who they are. And that's the, the building maybe, maybe the most important a point. And that entire relationship is that the beginning is to say, hey, like, where are you? What do you need to know and have some of the questions that's Diana that Diane's giving us here to put in. Just kind of like, I'm just going to ask like, Hey, what kind of, how do you like getting communicated with? How do you, um, do you want bullet points? Do you like to understand why I'm asking for that information? So that's part of what leads to a system that you can do that every single with every single client. Everything. Single prospect.

DBK: 14:02 Yup. Oh, that's right. You'll do it with every single person. You'll do it slightly differently with each one, although you'll see generalities with each ones. But the whole point of it is that everything is a combination of the task that needs to get done. Awesome. The relationship, and that's the piece that we tend to forget. People are very good at the task. Well, keepers are excellent at what they do. If we want to have sustainable businesses though, the piece that really clinches it is the relationship that you have with a client. People that feel that they can trust that you've got their best interest at heart. If a client is just a number or another portfolio or another account, they'll go somewhere else eventually. But if there's relationship that's built, oh, follow you anywhere because the trust is there. The same thing with my mechanic.

DBK: 14:58 I've been with him for 31 years because I trust that he's not failing me when I go in with my car is making a funny noise because we all know, well, you might not know, but I know sometimes I feel as a woman that if I go somewhere into a garage when my car is making a funny noise, they might try to take advantage of me because I'm a woman. I know that's very stereotypical, but with my mechanic, I don't have that feeling because it's not just about getting my car fixed. It's about the relationship that he's built up. I have trust that he's got my back.

MP: 15:34 Yeah.

DBK: 15:35 Things are not just transactional. It's not just about the work that gets done if adult being radically human in the work we do and building those relationships.

MP: 15:46 So how do we build a like this, this mechanic. What are some ways that you've seen that and with your bookkeeper that they've been able to build that relationship so strong with you?

DBK: 16:02 Mm Huh. Well with the mechanic, it's talking about, actually it was both my mechanic and my bookkeeper. It's sharing information about our kids, about our lives. My mechanic actually gives hugs.

MP: 16:20 Wow.

DBK: 16:20 Um, yeah. And it's powerful. You come in and Tom gives you a hug and he's actually told me about one lady who came in and he doesn't just give this little tap on the back. She actually fell asleep on his shoulder. Ugh. The quiet ready to let go and she didn't.

MP: 16:45 Wow.

DBK: 16:46 However, okay. He's, he's present, which is so nice for me. He is presence and yes, for adults, my life and my kids and, and just little extras. And I just feel good about going in there and I recommend him to others and, and you know, if ever he retired, I'll be devastated. Although he is recruiting, he's got a couple of his mechanics right now who I absolutely adore as well. And when Tom Retires, if these two brothers take over, I'll still stay there because I know their kids. And so not just the camera, kind of like they become family and little bit of a way. And at the same with my bookkeeper, I'm friends with my bookkeeper. I'd Facebook, I see her twins growing up. I've seen books. It's kind of, and we weren't friends before, but it thought there was a connection then I'll stay with her because one, she's doing it. I mean if she weren't doing great job I wouldn't. Okay. Um, first and foremost, the person has to do a great job, but I stay with her because, and she could raise her rates, I'll stay with her because I trust her and I have that relationship.

MP: 18:08 Yeah. That is such an empowering story, uh, on both fronts. And I think our listener, our bookkeepers, the people in the community, they care. They care about number one, they care about doing a great job. They want to be great at their job. I think what this podcast episode may be doing is giving them permission to be just authentic Lee, the caring people that they are and, and to do things like Tom is doing. And, and it might not be the type that's hugging your clients, but there is your human way of being, the way that you are with the people that you love that. And that's the way that the world wants you is just to be the way that you are. And, and what I love about the community is that there's so many listeners that are like this already. I mean, this is their, their in this business. They love doing it. They love helping and seeing problems be solved for people. People like you, right where they've come and they do a great job and you're able to run your business and grow your business. But I think it's like permission to be just more authentically you. And if you're a hugger, start hugging your clients. I mean, I love the concept of care. If we care for our clients and care about helping them and their families that they're feeding the business, we'll just go. Well,

DBK: 19:25 Yeah. So I want to raise a caveat though, because I mentioned introversion and extroversion. Another dimension is also the preferences of thinking and feeling. And this is based on Carl Young's worth work. Um, Carl Young was a Swiss psychologist in nearly 1900 and a lot of people are familiar with his work through Myers-Briggs in the NBTI personality type instruments. Um, but the thinking and feeling aspect, and that's important because when I talk about hugs, that's great for people who have a preference for feeling. Cause the f people are all about relationships and building relationships and trust and impacts on others and stuff. But those that have a preference for thinking and t they're more the facts. People, the ones who are logical and rational and objective driven and strategies. And in some cases, okay, don't hug me like so. So I might be a hugger, but if I'm dealing with someone who's a t and I try hugging them, that's not going to build trust.

DBK: 20:37 So it's recognizing that part as well. So yes, it's being authentic, but that's what I mean by meeting people where they are. It's understanding are they, do they, do they want to be friends? Do they want to have the hugs? For me, that works. What, for someone else who may be my opposite type, that might not be the way I connect with them. With understand being red. Well actually let me go back. You know, that whole thing about treat others as you want to be treated. Yes. You know, that's a golden rule that we learn at school and except that it gets us in trouble because when we treat others as we want to be treated, it works well when we're working with people who are like us. But when we're working with people who are our opposite type that can get us into a lot of trouble, it can feel disrespectful or weakened, feel disrespected. Wednesday are treating us the way they want to be treated. You follow me on that one?

MP: 21:42 I totally follow you on that. And it's, it's a, you know, like the person that wants to be, you know, is more into the numbers or, or facts. They need a hug from numbers and facts, not a hug from you. Uh, what'd you like that, that concept in that visualization. But uh, how do we, how do we know?

DBK: 22:00 A really good question. Um, that's where I do a lot of, well this is my life passion. I made it my life's mission to make the world a better place, one person at a time. And it's all about developing awareness. The people can learn more about this. I doing reading, research, taking courses, developing self-awareness. And there's a lot of emphasis right now on emotional intelligence, which is wonderful. That's only half the equation. The other half is developing social awareness. It's social intelligence and that's developing awareness of others and where is they coming from? Because we all see the world through our eyes and we make assumptions that the way we see the world is the way it should be. And whenever we hear ourselves saying, oh well they shouldn't do that, or they still do this, well that's coming from our perspective. But because there is different personality preferences and ways to see the world, it doesn't make the other wrong. It just makes it different. And so developing that social awareness and social intelligence about where others are coming from, we can then value what they're bringing to the table and we can go, oh, they're not being difficult. It's just being true to type. How do I meet them where they are? Because I can tell you if someone's being difficult for me, I'm being difficult for them.

MP: 23:30 So, so interesting. And I think it's our jobs. All of our jobs too, if we're working with people is to, to continue to skill up in terms of our own awareness of how we are as a being and as well, how the people around us are as human beings. And this has been so far, I think a kind of a, uh, almost a guidebook into looking at a few different points of the journey we started with, you know, just getting in and finding their place. Where are they at, you know, meeting them in their world and now with how do we show up for them? I mean, if we're huggers then that might not be right. But it's a, it's just the next level. And it's like there's no, I have a feeling that our listeners going, oh goodness, uh, I don't know what to do now cause there's so many, these, you know, is a lot to think about.

MP: 24:20 But I want to give everybody permission to take a deep breath. And if we just start with getting really great at going over to where they are and being interested in curious and really getting what they want, that's going to lead us naturally down to the next stage, which you're talking about. And you said true to type. That's a, that's a, you know, true to type. There's other types. Tell us a little bit about more about this true to type. What types are there and if a listener was interested in getting more information about that understanding how to deal with different types, what would your recommendation be there?

DBK: 24:53 MMM. Okay. So what I tend to do with my clients is I break it down really simply too. The four basic quadrants of extroverted thinking, extroverted, feeling, introverted feeling. And introverted thinking. There's lots of research you can do on the Internet and reading about other types of intelligence, other different types. But a lesson I learned way back in 91 from Dr. Brian Little Brian was the head of the psychology department, Carleton University in Ottawa. And he did all of his research on just introversion and extroversion. And one thing he said back then was if you keep it simple, people will apply it. And I've kept that. So I keep it to just introverts, extroverts thinking and feeling. And those four quadrants are give you a lot of information. Okay. Extroverts. Yeah, well extroverts in general, think out loud. Introverts thinking process inside extroverts are more action-oriented, they move forward quickly, whereas introverts will think things through before they move.

DBK: 26:08 And then we talked about the thinking and feeling aspects. So those four quadrants will give you lots of information and when people are behaving or the way they ask the questions or that gives you information, it's really easy when we become more observant and more attentive when we become present, if we get out of our own heads and our, our own ego and we just observe. And what kinds of questions is this person asking if they're asking a lot of detailed questions like that e instructors, client, if they're asking a lot of questions, more detailed, they're probably more introverted and they're seeking to understand and it behooves me to give them the answers as opposed to say, oh no, you don't need to know that. Um, if someone, if I'm giving a lot of input, knows and the person's eyes are glazing over, even though I feel that they need to know all those details, I need to recognize that, wow, that person, I'm going too deep.

DBK: 27:12 I'm too much in the weeds for them. I need to bring it up with just being observant to the other person, their behaviors, the questions they ask, are they leading the hug or are they sort of backing away? I might be the Hugger, but I won't necessarily come in and hug someone if I notice from their body language that that's not the way they are. They might, you know, give their hand first for a handshake or they might not even offer a handshake. And so it's whatever I'm most comfortable with isn't what's important. [inaudible] being more observant to the other person. And if people want to know more, there are lots of books, lots of, there's so much out there, but the advice would be keep it simple because it can get very overwhelming. And when it gets overwhelming, even the, the NBTI with 16 different personality types there, great to know yourself. But then that becomes overwhelming when you're trying to figure out, oh my God, what's this person like? What's this person like? How do I deal with them? How do I connect with them? Simple.

MP: 28:24 Yeah, and I think you've given a great example of how to make this really simple. By just starting with that first bit we started to talk about which was with every person have that conversation about how they, how they want things to go, what kind of information, how do they want to be communicated with. If everyone on this call just started actually caring about getting to the place that their customers and their staff, cause we haven't even started to talk about how this applies to the people that we work with. A that whether we work as peers or, or we're working with a team of people that work for us, it's just getting that knowledge of how they want to be communicated with

MP: 29:05 and then advanced levels we can go up with the interpersonal skills, the different metrics and keep, keep it simple is so refreshing everybody just keep it simple and do one thing. Just do one thing and try how that works. And, and I think with Diane's vise, we definitely get them. Want to have you come back and tell us more about how to navigate through all of this because it's just riveting and I think extremely valuable to our audience. And I know we're going to, we've already gone over time, but I do want to just touch on teams, how communication inside of the that worked for you. So many listeners have actually businesses that have staff. What advice can you give them to improve the way they lead and relate to their employees?

DBK: 29:51 Perfect. Exactly the same advice. How about dealing with your clients? Getting to know the staff, giving them what they need. We still need to get the work done, but depending on where they're coming from, they may do it slightly differently and it's treating them as humans as opposed to numbers. It's showing them that you care. One of the things that I see sometimes though is that in small businesses, business owners, managers can sometimes come in and be quote-unquote the boss, which can sometimes translate into being the parent. And they treat their staff more like kids. They don't engage them. They don't ask them their opinion that they don't. Um, include them in decision making. And the more that we can empower staff, the more that we can include them and engage them in decision making. The more you get committed people, this engagement comes from staff will feel that while you don't care about my opinion, you don't care about my ideas, you don't care about, you know, it's staff sometimes have really good ideas that can help improve processes or improve things. And if we don't listen to them or if we don't value them, you get disengagement, you get people who leave. So the way to build good teams is one to care, which also means the relationship piece. And it also means valuing what they bring to the table as well.

MP: 31:30 It's such a great analogy with this whole concept of showing up as the boss, as the parent. And it's not what a business owner really wants. It's probably just the way that they were taught or somehow a figured out. It's like, well I am the owner and I need to get people to do this bit and you know, make my business do the things that this business needs to do. But really what you want as a business that does does it for you. Right? It grows and, and, and it starts to take on a life of its own. It can never get there if you're always the parent.

DBK: 32:07 Well, that's it. And that's the one thing is you said something about, well, it's my business. And that's where, if in that mindset of it's my business, then there may be some belief that I must make all the decisions. I want it to go the way I want it to go. And so there's a sense of control and when we control too much the are that parents, and we're not open to new ideas, we're not open to two different approaches or different of looking at things. Sometimes if you want your business to grow, do you need to be open to that? And there are lots of cases, not just in small small businesses or micro businesses, but bigger businesses where they've gotten to a certain point and the owners are actually the obstacle to growth in the business.

MP: 32:59 Absolutely. I think it happens more and more often than not.

DBK: 33:03 Absolutely. Because the very thing that brought them to their success is what needs to change in order to break through for growth.

MP: 33:19 Yeah, the analogy is fantastic. Cause if you think of the as the, you know, an early stages, yes, your child is three months old, you know you are the boss and it's gotta be a certain way done. Otherwise I'm going to go very far. But eventually the thinking really, if you think about a child that needs to go off and be their own self in the world, I mean that's, you allow that child whether you like it or not, it's where you've done everything you've done, you've played your part and now here's this business, let's see where this business goes. And I mean for me and my own perspective, it's a daunting but yet a beautiful view of, well if you do the right things early stage and create a team and create a, your, your employees to be empowered and to think, think for themselves and to contribute and want to contribute, well the business will start to blossom into its own entity. And that's what I mean. That's where shareholder equity lives, like incredible shareholder equity, equity can live versus being stymied and held back. And it's like, no, I can't let you go out into the world. You will do, as I say, you will, you know, you can just imagine if kids were raised that way, right? They would always remain kids and you'd have adult kids.

MP: 34:34 Well we all know it

MP: 34:36 and we know that that's all that happens a lot. So great analogy Diane.

DBK: 34:40 Well, yeah, cause if you try to do that with teenagers, you see how they rebelled.

MP: 34:45 Yeah.

DBK: 34:46 And so the way employees rebel is they leave or they sabotage and we don't want that or they get disengaged. There's a really good book, Michael, um, called Situational Leadership. By Paul Hershey and Ken Blanchard and situation leadership is all about, there's again four quadrants. It is about autonomy. It is about coaching and supporting, but there's also a part when you need to be a little bit more directive and it's not always just at the beginning when you talked about the three-month-old, because I love that analogy that you brought in at the very beginning. When you have a new employee, you have to be more directive and that's natural. It's just like that three months old. As they get more experienced, they, you go through the different quadrants of and supporting and then autonomy, but then if there's a new client or a new process or a new project or a new something, then you need to come back to being more directive and giving a little bit more structure. At the beginning. That might not be for as long. It might just be maybe even an hour of, hey, let's look at this new project. This is what I need you to do this. And then you cycle through the other quadrants as the employee or employees get more experience and that might go very, very quickly. Or depending on the nature of the project, it might take days or months. I love the situational leadership model because it's, it's very situated.

MP: 36:25 I liked the title first slide. How do you deal with this situation well that you're going to deal with that situation different than this situation? I mean, and what I mean, that's what we're talking about. It's like the nuke new employee versus an older employee versus the project. I mean it's all different. So we apply different things for different situations, which uh, makes a ton of sense.

DBK: 36:48 Yup. And what I've found is that most people have a preference for where they manage from because how they would like to be managed. And a lot of times they don't want to be the control freak. Um, so they become more than let's say five, but sometimes that sets up the employee for failure because what they really need is direction in this situation. Don't need it all the time. But in this situation they may need more direction. And if I'm the type that, you know, I don't want to be seen as a control freak, so I don't do it. I'm actually setting up my staff for failure.

MP: 37:23 Absolutely.

MP: 37:24 It really truly is situational.

MP: 37:26 and that brings us right back to finding out where they're coming from and what they need.

DBK: 37:31 Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. Being present, it takes a little bit of work, but it becomes easier when you start getting to know your people.

MP: 37:41 Everything takes work. Go ahead. I cut you off.

DBK: 37:46 No, that's okay. I was going to say, what I found my clients have said after learning about all of this is that it becomes less stressful, less frustrating, and so much easier afterwards developing that awareness of print.

MP: 38:02 Beautiful.

DBK: 38:04 Yeah. Just to come back really quickly because you had asked me about how people can find out things. I had mentioned the golden rule to treat others as you want to be treated, but there's the platinum rule, which is to treat others as they want to be treated.

MP: 38:20 Hmm.

DBK: 38:21 Actually is a book called The Platinum rule. If people want to do a little bit more reading, they could look up that book as well. But it truly is about treating others as they want and many cases how they need to be treated. And really if, if more people did that the world would be a far more better place.

MP: 38:40 I absolutely love it. We're going to have, we've got some great recommendations for some readings and maybe even we'll get some of these authors onto the podcast. But you know, Diane, our job over here and our mission is to make the world a better place by helping small business. And, and so you've done that today and I think you've given access to do all sorts of different things that help you as a listener, as a, as a, as a business owner yourself ratchet up what you're doing to make your life better, to make it more smooth, more enjoyable. But at the same time, everything you're doing is going and helping cause your behavior is going to impact all of your customers and all of your customers. And it's a ripple effect. So today, thank you. I, I, your mission is to make the world a better place by helping people.

MP: 39:30 And that's helping the people in this podcast today. Now, Diane, you've done a lot of work, not only for small business micro-business, medium-sized business, but incredible organizations like celebrity cruises, send star the government of Ontario and I probably know big banks, big consulting firms, I mean big, big business. So all across the, the gamut there. And at the end of the day, they all have human beings in them. You're helping these human beings, whether it's a big or small business, be better in their business and the results that you are able to produce are phenomenal. Uh, how can, if people either know of someone that, that could use some of this, uh, improvement in their business or want to get in touch and learn more from you, what's the best way to do that?

DBK: 40:19 Hmm, thanks Michael. It's um, well they can go, they can connect with me on Linkedin, Diane, Brochure King or go to my website, www. Dianebrochuking.com are even, I would just love to connect iPhone give me a, give me a call. Um, we could do zoom meetings and I would love to connect with people. As you can tell, I'm all about people.

MP: 40:48 That is very clear, very clear, so, so generous. Diane, we're going to have of course all of the links that you've talked about with the books and your website and the way that they can reach out to you on our show notes. And I just really wanna thank you for, for generously giving your time today for our listeners.

DBK: 41:10 Thanks, Michael. It's been a real pleasure and if we can change this, make a little tiny tweaks in how we see others, I think we bring more joy and more peace into our own lives. Oh, thank you.

MP: 41:26 Thank you. And we'll love to have you back some point in the future.

DBK: 41:29 Thanks, Michael.

MP: 41:32 And that wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and what a wonderful episode it was to learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources. You can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time, goodbye.