EP85: Tobyn Pearson - How To Become An Incredible Manager & Leader


After spending 31 years in the corporate world as an operations and country manager, our guest, Tobyn Pearson, the author of Manage This: An interactive Guide to Management and Other Absurdities, had success and many failures.He learned that it's not always easy to see your grumpiest employees or customers.

Treat them with respect no matter who they are and keep working on building relationships because in the end they will see that you genuinely care and your efforts will pay off.

It makes life a whole lot easier if you're able to deal with difficult people and situations along the way.

All of his successes are directly attributed to the great people he had the privilege of working with over the years.

During this interview, you'll also discover...

  • The importance of having courage in yourself and your abilities

  • Why having an incredible insights will help you along the way

  • How appreciating your employees and customers will benefit you

To learn more about Tobyn, visit here.

For his LinkedIn page, discover here.

For his Twitter, explore here.

To buy his book, Manage This!, click here.


Michael Palmer: 01:14 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a great one. Our guest spent 31 years scratching and climbing his way up the corporate ladder to the position of country manager and senior operations manager for a global multinational. Along the way, he learned some valuable lessons about managing people and would incorporate some of that insight into his Kirky book, manage this and interactive guide to management and other absurdities. Tobyn Pearson, welcome to the podcast.

Tobyn Pearson: 01:50 Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

MP: 01:52 It's great. Now Tobyn, first off, before we get too far down this conversation, tell us a little bit about this multinational career that has led you to this point in your life.

TP: 02:05 Well, I started out at the bottom. I'm very proud to say I started cleaning toilets, Sousa and then I ended up as a country manager, senior operations manager. Uh, my travels took me to India, Mexico, lived in Trinidad and Tobago for three years. Uh, of course, the US and Canada and a few points here and there and in between. So I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of people and learn a lot of things from these people. And that kind of led me to this book.

MP: 02:34 Now this is really our, our connection begins at this book. I, I received a package from a very good friend, uh, Patricia and it was this box. I opened it up and there was a juggling kit and your book and a note saying, this person has a very good message and you need to have him on the podcast. So what, what inspired this book with the Juggling and, and this, uh, this really quirky angle around management?

TP: 03:05 Yeah, well, it started out as a, uh, a memoir cause I was on the road so much, so I had to fill my nights with something to do. So I started taking notes and writing and I thought, you know what? I could write a nice memoir management book and how to be the world's best manager. But then I read a few articles about, uh, management books and how they were generally a ego trips for the author. And I started rereading mine. And, uh, Lo and behold, they were right. The book was all about me and how great I was. And there's like, you know, that's not what this was supposed to be, be about management books for me anyways, they're supposed to be about the reader and to take the reader on some kind of journey or, and it's not supposed to be about the person writing the book.

TP: 03:50 So I tore down the drawing board and started again, and I ended up with this a bit of a mess that I'm very proud of. It's a, it's truly is interactive. That's why the name's in the title is it's requires the reader to take part in this book. And it's meant to be fun. It's meant to be a, it's meant to make you think about what type of manager you want to be. I mean, that's truly what the, at the end of the day is it, I'm asking you when you go through this book is to ask yourself those questions. What type of manager do I really want to be? How do I want my employees to see me? How do I want my suppliers to see me? How do I want my customers to see me? And that's what it's, and that's what it's all about really. I tried to make it as little about me as possible.

MP: 04:36 I just absolutely love that. I mean, first off I think it's very refreshing point of view to stop and go, okay, what is this book all about? And, and it takes, I think a person that understands yourself obviously too, to be able to take a deep look and say, this is more about my ego than it is about serving other people. But I also love the overlay of really that concept when it comes to leading people is that really the greatest leaders that I've ever experienced have been, not to say that they don't have an ego-driven, but they have always made it more about me and where I was going and how I was a part of their leadership. And that's what always inspired me and created loyalty. And you know, the desire to, to want to work with those people. And I just love that your book has sort of brought, you know, from an absurd kind of way has, has landed there and uh, and an overarching message which, which is refreshing.

TP: 05:35 Well that that was the original, and I mean, I wasn't the original temp, but when I sat down with an editor and tried to figure out what my message was going to be, I wanted that message to be, well, I don't want to tell anybody a message I wanted the message to be, I want the person reading this to decide for themselves based on some of the stories. Because the stories in this book are not always a, I wasn't always correct. And when I did, and I tried to make that abundantly clear that, uh, the decisions I made may not work for you. Sometimes they work for me, sometimes they didn't it. But for you as the reader to judge for yourself, I, all I do is give you a conduit in which to think about that. And that's what all the tasks are for.

TP: 06:15 That's what the juggling balls are for, which is a hobby of mine juggling. So I just, I'm basically asking the reader to do a lot of these funky little things in this book, but not to become a better manager, but just to give them a way to think about how the a look at people, how they work with people, how they have, how they deal with people on a daily basis and, and there may be a better way or not. I don't, I don't pretend to have the answers. And, uh, that's the problem I have with some boxers. They tend to come with some kind of formula that you can do these seven steps and you'll be a better manager. Do these not, it's not the way the world works for me anyways, for sure.

MP: 06:54 And for, for many people, I'm sure it's why. Um, I think it's intriguing. Uh, in fact, just this last weekend I picked up, found this old book, it was called Dale Carnegie's, a scrapbook, I think it was called a really old book written by his wife and basically took Dale Carnegie's favorite quotes and some different things that, and he had never reached his book, but I just opened it up curious, cause I was a fan of Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. But the one page that I opened this past week, I was, there could be the biggest problems happening in the world. I mean terrible problems happening in the world. But the person that you're sitting in front of cares more about the Boyle on their face or the, you know, the toothache in their mouth and they do about the rest of the world.

MP: 07:40 The most important person on the planet to most people is themselves. And so if you're leading from that perspective and letting that part of our human condition be the lead, it's not going to go very well. I mean people and that's unfortunately what's rampant in our world. And the type of leadership that does climb to the top often is coming from that ego-driven state. Now our listener are small business owners. These are people that both work with a lot of leaders and they have to have some leadership themselves and I think they're going to find your work really refreshing because there's a little bit of just in this quick conversation with you so far it's, it's kind of like relax, you know, the more you're just a human being, the better leader you're going to be.

TP: 08:27 Yeah, absolutely. I'm not a big proponent of change leadership, like trying to mold somebody into somebody. They're not. I've seen many courses and I've been on many courses with the other managers and they try to teach empathy and they try to teach you how to do this or how to do that. We are who we are. I don't think we would necessarily need to change who we are. We may need to change and how we react with other people, but not, we don't necessarily have to change. We are. And I think that's important to be yourself. Can you still be a good leader, Ben, have a different kind of personality than somebody else and still be a good leader and you don't have to mold yourself to any one specific thing. But at the end of the bottom line is you do have to care about the people that you serve. And that's probably the most important message that there is in all of this is truly caring about the people you serve. And if he knew that regardless of your personality, I think that will show through and make a big difference up and down the line.

MP: 09:28 Yes. And I can tell you that our listener right now listening is one of those people that actually do really care about who they serve. And I mean it's a type of work that they, they're often going into as you know, going into messy situations, difficult situations, situations embroiled around money and the, you know, the lack of, or people wanting that money and not being there. It all sorts of real big problems. So it's a service-oriented business. And so what have you found in terms of the people who have read your book? What have been some of the, the, the experiences that you've seen those people go through having read it?

TP: 10:07 I've been getting a lot mixed reactions and all, all good because the intent was in the introduction. I do say that I hope you enjoy some of these tasks, tasks that I've made you do. But I also hope some of them piss you off. And that was kind and that was kind of the intent of these, uh, a task is I've put things in there too that were supposed to be fun and put some in that we're supposed to be the, to make you mad, intimate and to make things difficult for you just to get a reaction out of you need to see how you handle that reaction. And a lot of the people that I've, uh, I'm following through, uh, emails, they're sending me emails back and forth as they go through the tasks or letting me know, oh, I really hated that when you, you son of a gun.

TP: 10:49 I really didn't enjoy that one at all. And some people will the exact same task. They'll say, oh I really enjoy doing that one. So you get two different opinions on the same task, which does Choate shows you, it's all in how you view the task, which is a big point of what I try to make as you may have a difficult situation, but if you take that situation with a smile instead of dumping on everybody cause the world's falling, it makes a big difference in the end. It makes a big difference in what type of leader you are. And that's why I put some of the difficult tasks in there was to help you along and smiling during while you're trying to do difficult things. And even I caught myself because of course I went and redid all these tasks when he's writing this book and I caught myself being grumpy and mean to myself mean to people around me while I was doing these tasks, forgetting the lesson I was supposed to be teaching everybody else

MP: 11:46 So interesting. You're, you're going through your own process and immerse, immersing yourself in it. Well, how do you, you know, your experience as a manager, as a leader, you've likely seen lots of young leaders come up to, to be leaders as well. Uh, almost this, you know, all of a sudden you're in a leadership position and, um, I know that there's many listeners right now that are sitting there going, well, I'm not a leader. Uh, and, and hopefully out of this conversation we'll realize that, yeah, actually you are a leader in your business and for your, for your clients, whether you're showing up as a leader, that's, that's another question. But what mistakes do you see many make?

TP: 12:25 The biggest mistake is not having enough courage in themselves and their own abilities. I mean, we all do, you kinda hit it when you're talking about the new leaders, but I think everybody's a leader. Like no matter where you are in your organization, whether you're the janitor or the CEO, and you are a leader in in some way, shape or form, you're serving somebody no matter where you are in any organization you're serving as a, as a manager, you're serving your employees, you're serving your customers, you're serving your peers, you're serving your boss, you're always serving somebody. And it's important to remember that, that you're never, and I always tell the young guys, you're new, you're no more important than anybody else in this organization. You're just part of the organization. And once you're employees and customers and everybody around you see that, you honestly feel that way, that everybody is an equal peer. It makes dealing with difficult situations a lot easier to you're, you're, you're standing at the same level as everybody. You're not talking down to people. You're not, you're not barking orders to people. Everybody's working together as one unit to solve the issues. But he can't do that when you're leading as a sort of a dictator type a leader. But yeah, for the young, for the young up and coming managers is listened to your people and treat them as equals but then there's no other way around it.

MP: 13:45 I think I, I like that stream of thought. And I think if we think of our listener and where they're at with being technicians, they're technical people, they understand things very, very deeply and their customer, the people they serve often don't understand to the level. So there's this gap of, of knowledge and, and, and likely the curse of knowledge and when you know a lot more than somebody else that could in a relationship, it could start to feel like you're telling me what to do or you're, you know, lack of patience or any of those things. What, what tips would you give to our listener for them to actually be able to be on that same level? I mean I think you've kind of addressed it a little bit, but from the, from what I've just told you, what are your thoughts?

TP: 14:30 Well, I, I touched on it a little bit in the book, in a couple of the sections about different cultures, different peoples is a get getting to know your people regardless of who they are in the organization. Even if they don't work for you, they could be a supplier, but getting to know them, giving them the time of day, like when somebody comes through and empties your garbage, that's a moment in time that you can take advantage just to say thank you or it's to say you appreciate it and people around you see that and when the people around you see how you treat everybody in the organization the same, the same way it boosts your morale and obviously boost productivity. I mean this book isn't about the how to boost productivity and morale. It's just trying to tell you how to treat people. And uh, it just, everything around you improves just naturally just by having positive interactions with everybody that you meet on a daily basis.

TP: 15:27 And that's what this is about is questioning. One of the tasks has, a final question is, is over the attractions I had today with people, is there anything that I could have improved upon? Whether it's with your ear, your child, your wife, your boss, a customer, you have to continually question yourself on that interaction that I had with the janitor today. Could I have done something different to let them know that, you know, I appreciated what they did and after a while of questioning that it becomes habit. You just, you just treat people with respect no matter who they are.

MP: 16:03 That's for me, it reminds me of my own experience. Rat rather late, I guess experience, just recent experience at rather is that, you know, we live in such a fast paced world, transactional world. You know, we're at the Er, I'm at the grocery store and I'm buying stuff and I'm in the middle of basically checking boxes off right in life. And yet there's all these human beings around me that I'm paying no attention to. And, and I think to, to stop and maybe slow down a bit is what I'm getting from this conversation is to slow down. Not, not, not just at work or in our businesses or, or in our family, but slow down everywhere and see what shows up. Like there's a lot of human beings there and just be more of a human being, right? It's like, oh, hi. You know, they, they often say hi and I'm like, Yep, Yep, whatever. And I was like, it's not that I'm meaning to be mean or that I don't care, but my ex, what I'm putting out to the world is that I don't care. Their experience of me is that I don't care. I'm just a, I'm just a robot passengers.

TP: 17:09 Oh yeah. Yeah. It became an obsession for me. It's in some of my locations. Like earlier in my career, I, I wasn't very empathetic to people. It was just like, there was, my goal was to meet the demands of the corporation. I mean, ultimately that's what you're told to do. So that's what I did. But I found a was a lot more enjoyable to, uh, later on in my career if you had actually relationships with the people that you were working with or as a, and actually made it a goal cause some of your customers or employees may not want to have that relationship. And that's absolutely understandable. But it became an obsession for me and I still is in some ways is when out of a customer or an employee who was a tough cookie, a tough nut to crack, that really it was just an ordinary and mean and really wanted nothing to do with me or the organization.

TP: 18:00 I focused on them. I mean, I literally, I worked on those relationships. I, I'd go out of my way to see my grumpiest employee every day. I go out of my way to see my grumpiest customer every day. And it's not always easy to do, but eventually the walls will break down and you just gotta keep working at it. I think it's important. I think it's important. And eventually they see, hey, this guy genuinely does care, change his whole relationship. And eventually, uh, not saying it's gonna improve bottom lines or anything, but it's certainly a, it's not going to hurt and it's, and it makes life a lot easier when you're, when you're able to deal with all the difficult people and difficult situations around you. You want to be here more human

TP: 18:39 basis

TP: 18:45 I think. So at the end, I think it's speaking to the a habit, right? A muscle to terrain and that just like my experience and I'm this robot going through my tasks by focusing on one thing which is, you know, slow down a little bit and interact with human beings in my life. It's training a new muscle in me to actually have this happen more often. And I think, I think what you said is that, does this return an uninvent, does this have a return on investment? And I think it absolutely does. I think that the short term is no, it doesn't likely have a return on investment. But the longterm and even not that long term is that it's probably an incredible return on investment, not just from money in the bank or growth of customers or all these things that we measure really easily, but from human capital, like our lives, our satisfaction, our ability to be productive, our ability to be creative, our ability to ward off disease or chronic illnesses.

MP: 19:46 You know, those all have an incredible hidden costs. And I know we're talking at very macro really, but we're not right? Every single listener right here is a person that may experience stress, fatigue, uh, you know, if they're, if they're in their business and they're being a robot, like I've been at times doing the, doing the checklist. If I can move away from that and be more of a human being, it's going to have a longterm effect on my ability to please my customers, longterm effect on my ability, please my family, please myself. You know, there's a lot of really big benefits that we could start to calculate out of your perspective here on life.

TP: 20:28 Yeah. And you're actually writing, the one thing that's missing out of that is it comes back to you as well. Once you're seen as a caring leader, I guess what people start caring about you as well. They may see you having a down day now and you'll be, you'll have people coming to you that maybe one or two other in the past saying, Hey, I noticed you a little bit off today. Anything I can do to help you, it comes back to you just as much as you're trying to give back. It's coming back to you as well. It just creates a much more of a team environment and yeah, it's amazing what we, what we can do when we start caring about each other. I mean, it sounds awful, uh, you know, touchy feely and everything, but at the end of the day, it's a, it, it is that simple.

MP: 21:09 I think it really is, and I think it's, it's just a, you know, that's why I'm loving this conversation is that it's such a powerful one. And I think a benefit for all of our listeners is just hitting, I think the nail right on the right on the head in that it's Mo for the most part, we all, when we're young, like I have a three-year-old son, he's extremely caring, right? And he's busy, he's busy doing his thing and he's, you know, if he interrupt him playing or doing his bulldozer or whatever, it's yeah. It's like, get out of my way. I got to do my thing here. But he's extremely caring and likely will be for a long time until he's put into the, hey, we've got to get stuff done. Like in life conversation, which I think happens, right? It's like, Hey, we're, oh, we've got to get this done.

MP: 21:53 We've got to make profits. Just like in your business and your career, it was like, oh, we gotta grow the business.

TP: 22:08 Yeah, yeah. Forget about the people. Just get it done. Uh, if we stop and go, wait a second, what is this all about? Be a better human being for ourselves. I mean, the return I think is there, I think he gives permission just to go back to the roots of, of what really matters is that you're human being. We are all human beings. If we act more like it and embrace the beauty of our human humanity, right? Life's gonna go better. We're going to be able to serve our customers better and we'll have a better experience.

TP: 22:30 So I was just actually did a, uh, some public speaking further a local rotary club here in Campbell River and I was talking about goals and it, it kind of combines, right? The beautiful end to this is a, like, you can have a goal in your job. You have to increase, you know, increased production by so much or get so many new clients by such and such a date and have a goal and then you achieve the goal. Well, here's how I looked at it. Like, uh, just using one goal as example. When I moved to Campbell River, I set a goal to myself to learn how to juggle five, five balls. I mean in the book I got a picture of me juggling five but it's a, it was just basically me throwing five balls in the air and it wasn't actually juggling them. So I made it a goal to juggle five.

TP: 23:14 So what I did, I actually formed a juggling club here and I met some fellow jugglers and they helped me along. And now that the year and a half on, I can juggle five but what's more important that I set a goal and I achieved it. But what much more important is now I have 15 to 20 new friends in my life that I didn't have before. I started that goal before I set that goal. So achieving the goal was nice, but what's much more important was the process of achieving with all these new friends that I found in the juggling club that helped me achieve goal. And it's just, and it's the same in business. It takes people to achieve your goals. You need to stop and smell the roses and enjoy your interactions with these people while you are trying to achieve your goals. This is just something recent that I've actually come across much.

TP: 24:01 None of that. None of this is in my book, but it's to something new. I've kind of realized it's the journey along the path to achieving any of your goals in business that is just as important as achieving the goal itself, and if you look at it from that perspective and enjoy the ride from setting the goal to achieving the job at achieving the goal and all the people you meet in between that help you achieve that goal, it's very liberating. It's an a, it's incredibly liberating because you look at the people different. You look at the people, Hey, these people are helping me achieve my goal. When you look at it from that perspective, it changes everything.

MP: 24:37 I love it. It sounds like you've got another book.

TP: 24:39 Yeah, I'm, I'm writing one, but not on business. That happened.

MP: 24:43 Well, you've got another two bucks then.

TP: 24:47 Yeah, I've got some couple in the pipeline.

MP: 24:52 You know, I, I love what you said and I'm glad you brought that up. It's the our listener, our listener, as you know, bookkeepers and these wonderful people are at work every single day. Helping small businesses survive, make more money, in fact thrive. And what I believe is that small business is the, is really the place where real positive change can happen in the world. I mean, we live in a chaotic world, right? You turn on the news, there's, I mean it's just a laundry list of awful things happening in the world. And, and it's why I don't actually read news anymore. I've, I've, I'm on my 14 month, uh, diet of news diet. I don't consume, I just get news from the people around me. Tell me what's going on in the world.

TP: 25:37 It's news that really matters that much I guess you could say. But the point is this is that for me, my goal is to make a positive difference in the world. You know, I have to make a living, I have to do the things that we do, run my business, all of that good stuff. But what's cool is that I get to help bookkeepers. You are helping bookkeepers right now strengthen, strengthen up so that they can help small businesses, double no small businesses, feed families. Those small businesses feed a kids. You know, the more that people are thriving in their businesses, you know, it's more micro philosophy than that that leads to a major impact on a micro, a macro, macro level, a global level. Really. So it, no, that's why I love this conversation is that really at the core of what we need to do is really we need to care about people and that's it, right?

MP: 26:30 If we can do that and, and I think it starts with caring about ourselves first, right? That's why I think your book is probably a fantastic journey into caring more about and being just aware and, and uh, being thoughtful where you're at and who you are and what, how you want to show up in the world, uh, that leads to this grander mission of helping small businesses. And so, um, you know, I, I'm glad that you brought that up. It, it really is exciting too to have that come out into our, our listener, our listenership.

TP: 27:03 Yeah. Well, I mean, I have a book, I have a my bookkeepers that look after me and like I can tell you that my life would be in not as Nice, as nice as it is without them. But in saying that, I mean, uh, I let them know that. I mean, when I have my meetings with them, I usually show them a new magic trick or I do some new juggling tricks for them. I, uh, I know what's going on in their life and they know what's going on in my life. Even though I'm paying them for a service. It doesn't mean that there isn't a relationship there and it's very important and it has to come back to from, and they also do the same for me. I actually look forward to my experiences. Uh, I'm not sure how many people say it might say that, but I look forward to my times with my personal bookkeeper as I do with a lot of my, you know, suppliers.

TP: 27:53 And you can look at when you have, when you have a meeting or you have something, you can't look at it as well. I gotta go, I gotta go meet with my bookkeeper, or I gotta go meet with my account and I gotta go meet with my lawyer. You need to somehow make it a positive thing. Oh, going to see Joel today. Can't wait to go see Joe and bookkeeper. See what he's up to today is, it's all about the framing, everything. And I mean that in a positive light and not making it a negative experience for no real reason.

MP: 28:28 That is our intent really with this podcast, is to remind every single listener that what they do is awesome and that yes, they're going out to people like you to help you. So what are they doing? If they can help you make your business stronger, help you grow your business, your message gets out to so many other businesses. It's a ripple effect, right? So it's what I, you know, I think it's, it's often we just don't, we forget that what we're doing actually matters. I mean, it's easy for us to look. I mean, right now, as I mentioned, my, my three-year-old son, right? He's fireman, fireman, police. It's like, oh, they're the heroes. And yes, they are. They are the heroes. They are the people that are keeping us safe and, and all of that is wonderful, but same time there are people in our lives that are doing some and it's maybe not that dramatic, right, but it's really makes a massive difference and people aren't paying attention to it.

TP: 29:26 Well, I used to always, uh, as a, as a senior manager, I mean I emotionally dealt with suppliers, so a lot me, my employees and my, and my suppliers. I didn't deal with a lot of people above me. I'd always have one or two customers here and there, but generally suppliers, employees that I deal with. But in my business everybody was focusing on the customer. But yet 99% people and I with on a day to day basis with was either employees or suppliers. So, but most, most of the managers that I know spend 90 90% of their time focusing on their 1% of their people and not attribute the other way around it. The customer is going to be a lot happier if my whole business is running well is a well oiled machine is going to reap the benefits of that much more than if I'm just focusing on him and not caring about everybody else.

MP: 30:18 So it's the same with a, like as a bookkeeper, you're your supplier, you're your supplier to many small businesses or large businesses I guess as well. You need to work on that relationship with, with them. As a leader, you need to be working with your bookkeeper, but the bookkeeper also needs to take the initiative to learn who their customers are. It's a two way street and, and you can do that by research. I used to do that with my customers. I used to research them. I mean not the company itself, but the people that ideal. I would ask other people, Hey, what does this guy like to do in his spare time? And so somewhere there's always a common thread between you and your customer or you and your supplier and you find that common thread and you work on it and you, that's how you build relationships.

TP: 31:04 Yeah, you're, you're, you know, it's, it's no different in any relationship is, is fit. Figuring out why you're in that relationship. Really. It's like you meet somebody like your jugglers that you, you hung out with bright. It was like a first it was to, to, to achieve your goal, but then you, you discovered something completely new which was you like these people and you like what they're up to and you like probably lots of things about these people and they enriched your life. You couldn't have got there unless you did the research and invested in that relationship. It's a is it is an investment so to go and research about your customer, this is for the listener to agree to reach research or customer will take time. You will have to slow down. You will, it will cost you something because you're investing that time in something other than producing the outcome of your business.

TP: 31:52 But that return is an enrich relationship. You will find your why you love working with them and maybe you'll find a why that you don't want them as a client and you want to find other clients that you want to serve. You know, we have a lot of listeners that work with nonprofits and and with churches and, and they love doing it because they really are connected to those, their customers bigger why? And so I just, I think it's such a, a a lovely message today is to slow down, to start with looking in the mirror and looking back at yourself and going, yeah, you're a human being and love yourself. But then start looking in the eyes of your customer and getting to know them and, and discover new things about them. Make this investment. I think only great things will come for your business, for your customer's businesses and for the communities that we all live in all over the world.

TP: 32:45 So you just wrote a book right there. I'm expecting you to publish that one soon.

TP: 32:50 We're going to have to hold each other, right?

TP: 32:53 You have an incredible insight and that's the way, I mean you're absolutely and everything you said we can be any other side of the fence right now.

MP: 33:02 Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you to them. This is, this has been a terrific conversation and I have a feeling there's a, there's a podcast or out there, his name is um, Tim Ferris and he wrote the book, the four hour work week, which people loved the title and he sold lots of these books. But the point is his podcasts are two hours long and I feel like we could have a Tim Ferris podcast, but I think I'd upset my listenership cause they like, they like to have them around 30 minutes. But I feel like this conversation could go on for a lot longer and I'd love to have you back to share more insights in, in your journeys of discovering how you're making a bigger impact on the world, not just in corporations but now all over. All over the world and small and big businesses.

TP: 33:44 No, I appreciate them. It's been wonderful talking with you and to, absolutely. It'd be fun to get together another time and maybe we could go through a task together and a, there's, and a, yeah. Get your listeners involved.

MP: 33:58 Absolutely. Well, let's, let's not wait until then. Let's give them a place where they can go and find out more about what you're doing and, and get this book and start started going through the exercise of we're not going to just tell you to be more caring. Uh, let's give you the access, the tools to go do it.

TP: 34:16 Yeah. And I'm very, I'm very upfront with that in the book. I mean, I can't teach you anything about, uh, morals or, uh, anything like that. That's a, that's a personal decision on how we treat people. And I'm very open with that in this book. All I'm doing is telling you, I'm not telling you anything. I'm telling you stories about how I've had interactions with people, what I did and how it turned out good or bad and giving you a way of looking at your own interactions with people, similar, similar interactions with people and if possibly you handled the wall or not. Then how you could possibly improve in the future, but it's all about the reader. At the end of the day. You got to decided on what kind of leader you want to be.

MP: 35:04 I love it. One of my mentors told me early on he said, don't chase money, chase experiences and your book sounds like it creates the opportunity to have experiences and those are the most valuable thing in things in life, so where can they find out more about you and your book?

TP: 35:22 Well, I, the books available on Amazon in Canada and us and Europe and everywhere else for that matter and I'm also, I have a website, www.tobynpearson.com which is just a, just starting. That website is not fully completed yet right now. Just a magic website, but it's going to be my public speaking and a more managed this type things on it so he can follow that to see is as changes slowly calm.

MP: 35:49 Beautiful. Well, we're going to, we're going to have the links as well to those web link to your book as well, and I encourage every listener to buy this book and start taking yourself through these experiences. It sounds like, uh, uh, both it'll can provide a interesting new things for your business, but I think also for your life.

TP: 36:07 Yeah, and that's mainly what it is. It's just really just book just gives you a conduit in which to think about how we work together with other people is really what it boils down to.

MP: 36:16 Beautiful. Well Tobyn, thank you so much for, for giving us your time today to be on the show.

TP: 36:24 Oh, I appreciate your time and good luck to all your listeners on your journeys. I hope they're all fruitful and good luck.

MP: 36:28 Thank you. Take care. That wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and what an incredible podcast episode it has been. To learn more about today's guest and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time,

MP: 36:52 goodbye.