EP79: Joe Woodard - How To Become A Top Small Business Advisor

What impact do you have on your clients?

Woodard exists to transform small business advisors to radically impact the way small businesses operate.Each business unit of Woodard serves to educate, support, and connect accounting professionals throughout North America and, increasingly, the world.

It is led by Joe Woodard, CEO and Founder of Woodard Consulting and Woodard Events.

He was recognized by Accounting Today as one of the Top 100 Influential People within the accounting profession in 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017.

In 2008, he was recognized by CPA Practice Advisor as one of the Top 40 Up and Coming Thought Leaders under the age of 40.

Today, he has trained over 100,000 accounting and business professionals in the area of practiced developments, changing technology trends, strategic consulting and how to maximize the use of accounting software in their practices.

During this interview, you'll discover...

  • The importance and role of using adaptive capacity

  • Tips on how bookkeepers can turn things around in their businesses

  • Why picking the right people you surround yourself with will help your business

To learn more about Woodard, visit here

For Joe's LinkedIn page, click here.

For his Facebook page, go here.

For his Twitter, explore here.

For his Youtube Channel, discover here.

This episode was voted as one of the TOP 5 Interviews to Help You Get Freedom in your Bookkeeping Business

Here are some Woodard Resources.

a) www.woodard.tv – On demand videos including interviews with thought leaders and segments of our main stage presentations from Scaling New Heights 2017

b) www.woodard.com/techmakeover - Our video case study produced in a reality TV format that details the impact deployed technology innovations on small businesses.

c) www.scalingnewheights.com – the annual Scaling New Heights conference for small business advisors

Steps to Implement Fixed Fee and Value Pricing Models in Your Practice (See below)

Fixed Fee Pricing

Step 1: Determine your cost to deliver a specific service or slate of services. Clearly defined scope is key.
Step 2: Determine the price needed so your firm has the desired margin.
Step 3: On a regular basis, monitor the costs you incur.
Step 4: Periodically adjust the fixed fee price to maintain target margins

Pricing Based on Value (i.e. Value Pricing)

Step 1: Discover what your client values (i.e. how are you the solution to their problem?)
Step 2: Find a way to leverage your knowledge to create generate that solution
Step 3: Communicate (and if necessary educate) the client on the connection between your knowledge and their solution
Step 4: Set the price according to the wealth your solution generates*
Step 5: Connect the knowledge you provide the client to the wealth you created for the client (post engagement or engagement phase)

*Note: Wealth is not always financial. It could be advancements in the clients scalability, infrastructure, peace of mind, company culture, quality of services delivered, etc.


Michael Palmer: 01:54 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I'm your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a good one. Our guest has trained over 100,000 accounting and business professionals in the areas of practice development, changing technology trends, strategic consulting, and how to maximize the use of accounting software in their practices. In 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2016, he was recognized by accounting today as one of the top 100 influential people within the accounting profession. Joe Woodard, welcome to the podcast. 

Joe Woodard: 02:33 Michael it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. 

MP: 02:35 Yes, and what a big guest to have on our show. And so for those, and there's probably not many, but for those that don't know you, Joe, let's start off by sharing a bit of your career background leading up to who you are today. 

JW: 02:51 Well, yeah, Michael. Uh, I'd love to do that. I got my start as a writeup associates in a CPA firm and met Louisiana while I was studying accounting at the graduate level at the University of New Orleans. I was headed to the traditional CPA track, you know, paying my dues, just kind of working my way through graduate school in the field where I was going to practice and all of that took a 90 degree turn when that practice asked me to become their residents certified QuickBooks pro advisor. And I think this mirrors a lot of people's careers within the space, especially in the US where QuickBooks is so dominant. I didn't like the product back then. I went kicking and screaming, uh, kind of with handled the job because I was the most junior associate to automatically add the short straw. Quickbooks was not beloved by accountants in the mid-1990s. 

JW: 03:43 Uh, but I took the certification exam and I started supporting the clients on QuickBooks and that got me into this mix of helping clients to do better work at bookkeeping, sometimes taking over their bookkeeping within the practice and then doing a lot of work to train them on, on the QuickBooks product. One thing led to another, I became a national trainer, then got a contract with intuit 15 years after getting that first contract with intuit in 2002 to train accounting professionals. We now have become into its premier trainer to accounting preferred trainer, two accounting professionals globally. And in that capacity we train about 30 40,000 right in there, accountants with intuit every single year. 

MP: 04:27 Wow. You are like a two-decade overnight success. 

JW: 04:33 It feels more like the two decades, not be overnight, but yet have, we're really excited about what we've been able to accomplish here and the impact we've been able to have on the profession. 

MP: 04:43 Beautiful. So tell, tell us a little bit about Woodard and, and why. Why did you end up creating water to help small business advisors? 

JW: 04:54 Well, you know, training is just part of the equation. We could have gone on with these intuit contracts and had a tremendous impact on the profession, but we wanted to do more than that. We wanted to have our own voice within the space that moved beyond the intuit message but was complementary to it. And we wanted to engage accountants intentionally throughout the year. So we created two programs here at watered. One is a national conference called scaling new heights. There'll be 1200 mostly bookkeepers, but bookkeepers and tax prepares all with a, an accounting tech mindset who gather this June as they do each year. The theme, this year's team, the machine's about leveraging all these technologies in your tax and bookkeeping and accounting practice. Um, but that was still just a once a year touch. So we created watered institute, which is I think the highest impact program here because it's throughout the year. And with Woodard Institute, we coach you toward your destination that you set. We help you to write your practice plan, program strategy, try to generate the results, you determine the results you want to generate. And then one of our mentors comes alongside you and helps you as an accounting professional, helps you build that practice throughout the year. It's actually about a three-year process, but there's joy in that journey. 

MP: 06:16 Wow. You know, it's, uh, it's amazing how you have evolved over your career, but at the end of the day, you've always been helping small business and uh, and bring, whether it's a small business to should be the end-user of financial information or it's the people providing that financial information and insight to small business owners. So it's fantastic. We love absolutely love anybody who's helping small businesses because we believe they're really the heartbeat of our, our countries. 

JW: 06:48 You're absolutely right. In our vision statement at watered is to transform small business through small business advisers. So it's, we're not just empowering small business advisors so we can help them to be more profitable, which within the bookkeeping space, I will tell you, bookkeepers leave a tremendous amount of opportunity and profit on the table. They typically undervalue the services that they bring or their clients do, and they don't price right. Now that I know there are exceptions, but as a whole in what I look at, some of those average bookkeeping bill rates, they're way under what the, what the market will bear. So we do help bookkeepers to become more profitable. But that's not really our ultimate end game. And I don't think it should be the bookkeeper's ultimate end game. You know, Henry Ford said that a business should be profitable or it will die, but if it exists only for profit, it must die because it doesn't have a reason to live. 

JW: 07:41 So, and that was actually a little prophetic, you know, because after his death, Ford went through cycles of existing only for profit and we kind of saw what happened to the effectiveness of their product is during those seasons. Right? So, so yes, absolutely bookkeepers must be profitable and that's part of our coaching program. But ultimately it's about what impact do you have on your client. And if we're going to transform small business through small business advisors, um, bookkeepers are key. Maybe even the tip of the spear, they're the gatekeepers of the financial information. They're often the most trusted. Definitely the most engaged accounting professional year-round within the business. They're sitting on a treasure trove of information and many times they even know how to analyze that information. Sometimes that's something we train bookkeepers to do. But the biggest barrier I've seen Michael within the industry is a psychological one on the part of the client and the bookkeeper alike. 

JW: 08:41 And it's about a paradigm shift and what it means to support a small business as a bookkeeper to move from the back office to the board room. And though that might be a journey of just moving down the hallway, the, that 10 feet from the back office to the board room at the client's office is it can seem insurmountable. Uh, and what we try to do here is to, to, to train bookkeepers to change the paradigm within their own mind, but also within the mind of the client to say, I belong here, pull out a seat. I have, I have valuable information to share and it will transform your small business if you will. Give me that voice. 

MP: 09:30 Beautiful. You know, it, it's so true. And I've, I've spent a lot of time with a lot of business owners, not just bookkeepers, but any business owner. And Typically Solo. I find it with Solo entrepreneurs or business owners is the, there's the mind is such a powerful thing. It can either be really helping you sore can just be keeping you pinned down to the ground. And sometimes it takes, you know, hearing something 20 times before you believe it yourself. And so what you're talking about is really supporting people from their confidence levels and, and, and having them take the actions that will then prove to themselves that they can do it and that they can go further. And, uh, you know, that that really is the power of coaching is that if you're trying to do it all by yourself, you're really limiting yourself. I mean, it's, it's simple math, right? If it's one, it's one person yet another person, it's like there's an equation here. There is some, some value. And then we can start to talk about getting the right people around you, which is the next thing. Like you've created a massive community of people that, uh, help both your clients and connect with each other and a massive event. Talk a little bit about why it's so important to pick the right people to surround yourself with. 

JW: 10:50 Well, yes and I would say getting to your, your one plus one. Do you, you were, you were, you were getting at this but it is not addition. It is multiple occasion. Um, I mean would, I would just, I mean not literally cause that would get us one times one. He was one, but I'm saying it is, it is a, it has an exponential impact. You know, one plus one doesn't equal two one equals three equals 40 equals five. And a lot of studies have proven that that's not just subjective opinion or sort of the psychology of groups. He is shown that when you come alongside someone and you carry the weight together, um, you, you have a combined strength greater than the sum of your parts. But getting to the point of community, um, that is a big thrust here at water. Initially, there are four pillars, education, coaching, community and resources and we believe that community is integral to both coaching and education that you absorb education better when it's reinforced with your peers in an interactive environment. 

JW: 11:48 That's why we still do a face to face conference and a largely virtual training world and that's why it's, I know a lot of other conferences are shrinking because of the emphasis we placed on the year-round community and this is like a family reunion where we gather once a year. We make a lot of use of Microsoft's tools. One particularly, uh, called the Yammer and Yammer is a private social networking system and so what we've done is created a private deployment just for bookkeepers, QuickBooks, ProAdvisors, tax practitioners. You decide who you are, then you engage us on all the things that are relevant to you by getting into all of these different groups is not that different from other kinds of social networking systems, Facebook groups or LinkedIn groups. But in our case it's our own private world and you can't get in unless you meet certain qualifications. You can't be in the tax group unless you're an annual, a Byler, an ea or a CPA doing taxes can't get it into QuickBooks group unless you're certified. So, so you know that the level of engagement that's happening there is meaningful. But beyond just sort of compartmentalizing and getting the peer groups together, the key is that you're forming intentional goals alongside your peers. So it's not just peer to peer interaction and share of knowledge or even the cross-referral of clients. It's about accountability, accountability, and confidence that comes with knowing you're not alone. 

MP: 13:19 Absolutely love it. Let's get into talking a little bit about some specifics. You know, if you were to be coaching, and I know you're running this organization, I mean you have lots of coaches, you have lots of different people that are involved in mentoring. But if you, if you know, we had our listener here with us today and the one thing that we hear all the time, and I'm sure you do as well as is that they feel overwhelmed or overworked, maybe feeling like they're out of things or out of control. Especially, you know, various times in the year where there's lots of deadlines. How, how can that bookkeeper turn things around in their business? And, uh, what tips would you, would you give them? 

JW: 14:05 Well, this, you, you've hit on a struggle. I know that you're very close to, I'm so glad you asked the question. I hear it all the time. I want to be more intentional in my practice. I want to grow my practice. I want to make technological changes to be more efficient in my practice. I just want to come to the scaling new heights conference, right? Whatever it may be, I don't have the time. I'm overwhelmed, you know, so, so they're caught in this quandary of knowing they need to make changes in order to create some, some pressure relief and some increased profits, but they're too constrained in their current systems and process. You're in by those prisms and processes in order to gradually create the change. So to get out of the Quander DDA, that pickle, I tell a bookkeepers just charge more. You're probably, unfortunately, if you're a state, if you're hitting a statistical average of bookkeepers, that's a big gift. 

JW: 15:01 You're probably undercharging at this point. You it, I would recommend it's not just an hourly rate increase. I would say take the opportunity to flip from hourly rates to fixed fee rates and in that flip create a price point that's commensurate with the value that you're bringing. If right now that the average bookkeeping rate in the United States of America is sitting somewhere around $45 an hour, so you know if you're anything under that, don't just go from 45 up to from up to 45 or don't just try to push the envelope and go, okay, well I've got, you know, just distinction in the marketplace are I'm differentiated or unknown, my quality is higher, I'm faster, so I could go to 60 70 you use it as a baseline, but not to decide how you're going to exchange hours for dollars. Instead, use it as a baseline to say, how am I going? 

JW: 15:53 How am I going to fix fee? The services I'm offering flat rate them. Define the scope very specifically of what you're doing within parameters of how, you know, how many bills, how many checks, you know, whatever the processing load is. Then that'll regulate your income, but it will also increase your revenue per client. And this is the third one that gets us to the quandary solver. It will, it should if done correctly and aggressively enough, it should get about 20% of your clients to say, see Ya, I don't like the new billing model or I can't afford that price point. That's an effective price increase, not going to do it and they're going to walk. It may or may not be the 20% you want to walk. But in the experience we've had with our, um, our members, often it is the exact 20% you want to have walk anyway. 

JW: 16:47 Regardless, you have just leveled or increased your annual revenue net of the 20% walking away. So you've got no decrease in revenue, oftentimes increases in revenue, but suddenly 20% additional capacity. Now the catch is not to fill that adaptive capacity immediately with new clientele because all you're going to do is recreate your problem with a slightly better income. Instead, use that 20% to focus on the growth and development of your practice. The first thing you should focus on with your 20% energy is efficiencies. Pull in automation technologies. They're replete in the space. Everything from bank feeds to automate it in the cloud, the way your client manages expenses and time, so it feeds into the system. Work with your clients to integrate their front end systems with whatever you're using as your general ledger system. Just focus on how you can do less and less and less data entry a, their models. 

JW: 17:50 We teach in our programs where you can get up to 80% automation of the bookkeeping process across your existing clientele, but you won't have the capacity to deploy them until you create that pressure relief. You gotta get those 20% either fire them or use a price increase to make them go away. The ladder is better because it levels revenue then is you is you're increasing the efficiencies underneath this fixed fee rate. You're going to find profit margins continuing to creep up and up and up and up while the clients are not paying any more today than they paid yesterday, which is why you want to, you know, go with fixed-fee pricing. All right? Now once that happens, you can either just enjoy a change of lifestyle, keep the 20% adaptive capacity for some additional work-life harmonization and pick up a hobby. Just have a better life. 

JW: 18:42 Or you can use the increase margins and your 20% adaptive capacity to hire an associate because now with that increased margin, that increased profit that associates a yield is going to be easily three, maybe four times what you pay them. All right? And that's the biggest objection we have to growing the practice is the margins are so razor-thin. I pick up all the pain that I don't pick up commensurate a wealth generation for myself. All right, so I know that was a lot it and as an answer to your question, but that's the best way to answer your question. So the best way to solve the puzzle. 

MP: 19:27 I think you answered it incredibly well and so step by step, I mean I just love it. It's going to be a step by step in the show notes. It will be a step by step and we'll put it into the resources as well. I mean these conversations and everything that you've talked about, there's been pieces that have been talked about on this podcast and you've brought, what I love about what you've done, Joe, is you've brought it to a very simple but as well, freeing context. You know, there's a lot of people who talk about value pricing and you know, hourly and Oh my God, you charge hourly. Oh by God you don't do value pricing. Oh my God, you know, these people, I talked to them and they're there. They're freaked out and upset with themselves that they haven't been able to do anything and they're spending more time worried that they're not doing it versus just simply, hey, go from where you are now to somewhere above, right? Like, start making progress, fixed pricing, everything. You'll step by step everything that you've said. It's, it's not like it's going to get done tomorrow, it's just got to start today. 

JW: 20:37 Yes. Start today phase in client by client, starting with the clients you can, you can phase it in the quickest and get your learnings on the best way to manage the pricing around your processes. But the key is, and this is the biggest mistake people make, is they try to take what they're already billing at the hour when they've been undercharging and flat rating that just multiplying that in the last year and flipping it over and say, okay, we'll just take whatever I charged you last year, divide it by 12 you pay me that per month, and you're, and you're still leaving that opportunity on the table while you're not pairing down on the number of clients that you're serving. So all you've done is abdo adopt all the additional risk of this fixed-fee pricing, which, which requires you to constantly monitor scope with no change in your revenue, no changing your capacity. 

JW: 21:25 And that's the reason a lot of bookkeepers have said, I've tried it or I examined it and it disqualified it. And then I want to add something that I very important that I missed in this last one. After you've created efficiencies. So whether you hire two, multiply those efficiencies or you just enjoy them within your practice, use some of that 20% adaptive capacity, which through automation is going to become 30% 40% 50% right? So it's going to grow. Use this adaptive capacity that you're going to gain through extreme efficiencies to coach your clients to, to, to move from the back office to the board room. And then you can move from fixed-fee pricing to value pricing. Those are not synonymous. Fixed fee pricing is just a methodology where you regulate into, into even payments what you were otherwise charging by the hour, right? And if you try to value price without increasing value, really you just inflate price. 

JW: 22:27 So fixed fee price, the, the bookkeeping services value price, what you do in the board room and, and you value price over and above what you're charging for bookkeeping, they're billed separately and you value price of percentage under the wealth you generate for the client, not a percentage over the cost you incur. That's the key difference between the two of them. So determine with the client how you might generate some wealth for them. Maybe it's through better cash flow management and maybe it's by decreasing the cycles on their ar turns and therefore reducing their bad debt expense. There are levers we can pull and we know how to pull them. That can make a financial difference to the bottom line of the client. And a lot of times it's just deploying the same systems. Maybe they're charging by the hour as a professional service company and they need to fix fee price and do the same sorts of automation, uh, processes that you put in your own bookkeeping practice. 

JW: 23:23 You can move the needle in significant ways and then you can say to the client, you know, absolutely, I think we need to create a base here, right? I'm putting some energy and value just by putting, putting reports together and plans together. But what I'm really interested in is, you know, 30% of the wealth that I generate in year one and 15% of that same wealth I generated in year one when it recurs for year two. After that, you keep 100% of the wealth that I generate. It's a very fun conversation to have with clients and as long as it's measured properly there, their checks, the client is very happy to write it. 

MP: 23:59 And what a fun conversation to have with somebody increasing their wealth. Yet I love the context and you know, going back to where you started, right, as is a bookkeeper valuing what they do. I really believe that the listener right now is so far away from valuing what they do. Any tips on how they can actually just start with how valuable they are for their clients? 

JW: 24:28 Well, and this is one of the mistakes that I think bookkeepers and those who coached them may though they'll create a mandate, but you need to become a coach. You need to meet the move to the board room. You need to, you need to, you need to, and the book cover might even recognize yet that opportunity exists, but nobody is telling bookkeepers how to do that. What is the very next thing? So you ask the right question, right. And unfortunately, in a podcast environment, I can't tell each individual one of your listeners what their next thing should be. We do that in our, in a coaching environment, but in a general sense I would say start with the metrics that matter most to the business owner and that's not just cash position but it's, it's cash projection, cash flow projection and there are models out there and everything from excel spreadsheet templates to within certain general ledger solutions. 

JW: 25:16 Definitely within financial analytics solutions like fathom Q Vinci and others that talk to GL solutions but attach an analytical layer to what you're doing in the books. You don't even have to get the client's permission to do this because of the privacy of the cloud. Even if you attach your cloud solution, just attach it, run the dashboards and see what pops out at you that you know is pertinent to the client. Then open a dialogue with the client. It would go something like this, just finished closing out your books for last month and I noticed some things that I think I should bring to your attention. Let's jump on a call that will, that will intrigue the business owner. They might think it's more utilitarian, like maybe they didn't file their business license on time or maybe their sales tax report had an error in it because that's the way they perceive bookkeepers today. 

JW: 26:13 But then there'll be pleasantly surprised when their bookkeeper, their historian, their record keeper is saying, I was looking at your cash flow and I think you're going to have a problem next month if you don't frontload some of these sales. And then back it up. And by the way, you know the bookkeepers who are listening, my goal, I don't know how to do that. And I'm telling you, you don't have to know how to do that because the financial analytics solutions you integrate with the general ledger products already do it for you. They make you look really smart. Okay. And then, um, after that one, you know, micro conversation where you hit a home run with the small business owner, just keep repeating the success. All right? You can that now you're now you're the bookkeeper and the cashflow monitor. So just have another conversation with the, with the client at the end of the next month. 

JW: 27:05 Shoot the same email. Looks like we got cash flow manage, but I was looking at your books and there's something else I would like to discuss with you. Do you have time for a call? Don't ask the client's permission to sit down in the board room. Just walk in, interrupt the meeting in the boardroom. I'm speaking hypothetically, you know, hypothetically and say, look, I have something. I think it's important to management. They will listen. And if the client doesn't listen, when you say you have something important that you believe affects the management of the company, they're not the right client. If they turn down that request two or three times in a row, you need to accept a client relationship where they will listen to you and fire that client. 

MP: 27:53 Hallelujah to that. And there's a lot of clients out there that want exactly the type of bookkeeper that we're talking about today. And so what great advice that I, I really, I think this segment has really given some hard, hard, hard, fast things you can do and start to think about in your businesses and, and just start taking the actions. I mean, I think this is going to be one of those episodes, Joe, that people come back to and listen to again. Take notes, go out there and take the next step, come back, listen again. Take the next step. So you know, really want to thank you for, for this very compressed simple, not easy but simple plan to actually go there and increase both wealth for our listener and for their clients. And there's so many things we could, we could dig down into and have deeper conversations about. And we probably will when I have you come back, if you will. Um, okay, 

JW: 28:52 I'm coming back. 

MP: 28:52 Yeah. But before we say goodbye, I want to talk about the event that you, you do scaling new heights, you know, massive event. Tell tells a little bit more about it and what, you know, I'm sure listeners, if they haven't heard about it, they, they're definitely, their interest has been peaked in this conversation. You know, what, what's, what's, why should they get out, book that flight and get on a plane and come and to experience this event? 

JW: 29:18 Um, well, we were going to our 10th year, so it's a very strong event. It's a very mature event. Um, we do it in partnership with intuit. So if you have any clients that use QuickBooks or QuickBooks online into, it's gonna have a between 70 and 120 delegates, excluding executives, product experts that they conduct town hall meetings there, product managers to do segments. We call 100 minutes with intuit where can speak directly with the product manager for QuickBooks, QuickBooks online, QuickBooks online accountant. So if face time with intuit is a driver for you, then it is. It is unlike any other conference in the world, including in many ways QuickBooks connect, which is our sister show because of the fact that we're just pro advisers and bookkeepers and QuickBooks connect has developers and small business owners as well. But beyond that there are 15 concurrent breakout sessions. 

JW: 30:10 Every single breakout hour there are over 150 unique courses during the four days of the conference. There are five general sessions that include big name speakers and like Steve Forbes is coming this year to talk about the impact of technology on small business and small business advisory services. And the theme this year, uh, compliments a lot of what we've just talked about, Michael, it's called tame the machines as I mentioned earlier. And it's about how you leverage the machines to create extreme efficiencies in your practice. And then the second layer of how you train them as you transcend them to do the, the work that the machines cannot do and the work that they ought not do. Right. And mostly within with our realm that falls into the cannot do. And that's the kind of client coaching work, the relationship work, the knowledge work that isn't cyclical, repetitive and service oriented. So leverage them, transcend them. The entire theme of the conference is a drill down on everything we've been talking about during this episode. 

MP: 31:17 Beautiful bullets. Just, it sounds super exciting and it's, it's happening in June, June 17th to 20th in Atlanta. So get listener, get your ticket booked, go there and um, learn but as well be inspired. And I, I believe, Joe, that, you know, there's lots of different events, right? But there's a lot of our listeners and bookkeepers that maybe aren't going to be new listening to this is that have not been to these events. And I can s I can tell you from my own personal experience in attending industry events for whether it was an entrepreneurial event, maybe it's I was coaching event or whatever it was. Every single one of them was a multiple-time return on investment from the things that I learned from the confidence that I gained, the satisfaction of being there. I mean, after an event like this, if you're, if you don't feel 10 x more committed to what you're up to and what you're doing, well you didn't actually attend. I just, I am committed as 

JW: 32:21 well as effective. You know, we, we have folks that come to the show and say it was a result of the show. I gained x number of referrals from the people that I met there, or I was able to provide new, new billable services to my clients and generated revenue streams that way. So yes. Yeah. Inspiration effectiveness is what follows a conference when the conference is doing what it's supposed to do. 

MP: 32:45 Beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. And I've heard great things about scaling new heights, so please go and meet Joe. And the rest of the tribe over at Woodard. And uh, that'll be exciting. Now, Joe, anything else that you'd like to share? Tidbits, some things that, uh, that our listener can go and find out more about you and about Woodard and everything that you're doing? 

JW: 33:09 Yes, absolutely. There are many free options available. I know some of your listeners cannot get to Atlanta in June. Scheduling conflicts, budgetary constraints, whatever we'd love to have you. But beyond being with us in Atlanta or joining one of our programs, we have a tremendous number of free resources and you can check those out at Woodard.com. Um, some of the free work resources include, uh, watered.tv. So that's a different URL that you might want to jot down, not if you're driving, but Water.com is our website would or .tv is like our own little miniature version of TED where we have interviews with thought leaders. We stream segments from last year, scaling new heights conference and, and wide range of other on demand playable resources. Um, but one of the ones I'm most excited about is our reality TV show called tech make-over. We're in season two now, now they're a little miniature seasons. 

JW: 34:06 Um, and you can stream those directly from our website at Water.com or Water.tv. They're very highly produced. It's about $120,000 budget per hour of production. And we, we document a small business advisor about keeper who transforms a small business client through deployed technologies, uh, changing their processes, changing the way they run their businesses and measuring the impact. So it's really our vision statement in a video case study to transform small businesses as small business advisers. Season One, we transformed a bar on Bourbon Street and in season two we transformed a dock maintenance and installation company in the lake area of north Georgia. So go watch those and enjoy them. They're absolutely free. 

MP: 34:52 Cool. That is so cool. We'll have all the links of course. And uh, I'm sure there's so much more of the listener can go and find and dig through the sounds like just chocolate block full of resources. So get over there. Take it in, take in some of these events, the services that would or can offer if you're committed to growing your business, they can help you. Joe, this has been great. I really want you to come on back maybe after the event this year and you can share some of the key takeaways from that for our listeners. Uh, but thank you. I know you're a very busy man and leading your team, so thank you for being with us. 

JW: 35:29 It was just an honor to be here and I have a parting gift for your listenership. I know that getting to value pricing and fixed-fee pricing can be tough and though these aren't going to give you every step in the process, I do have a four-step process for fixed-fee pricing and a five-step process for value pricing. I'll send those over to you, Michael, and I'll let you include those in the listening guide for everybody tuned in today. 

MP: 35:51 That is fantastic, Joe. Thank you so much. 

JW: 35:55 Yup, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

MP: 35:56 Thank you. That wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast, and wow, what a chalk, a block episode it has been. To learn more about today's guest, of course, you can go to the website and get all sorts of valuable free business-building resources that's at Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com. Until next time, goodbye.