Do you want clients?
For those bookkeeping businesses that do, especially startups, it can be challenging to find them.
Many bookkeepers aren't comfortable with prospecting because they'd rather just do the books.
According to our guest, Omar Visram, who is the co-founder of Enkel which is a Vancouver-based bookkeeping practice, it doesn't have to be hard.
When he began his business in 2016, he leveraged the power of coffee meetings for business referrals and it worked incredibly well.
It was such a hit, his firm now has over 15 employees to handle the increased workload.
During this interview, you'll learn...
How to master an effective coffee meeting to produce results and not feel uncomfortable while doing it
Why you should use your warm network to select people you'd like to meet
Why coffee meetings are a quicker referral strategy then SEO and content marketing
To learn more about Omar and his firm, visit this link.
To read his LinkedIn article, “Why I Quit My Dream Job”, click here.
Michael Palmer: 01:30 Welcome back to the successful bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a great one. Our guest is the co-founder of Enkle, a Vancouver based bookkeeping practice helping small to medium size businesses to better manage your finances. He is a former KPMG employee who decided to start his own bookkeeping practice two years ago and today the firm has over 15 employees, Omar Visram. Welcome to the podcast.
Omar Visram: 02:01 Thank you for having me, Michael.
MP: 02:03 Yes. And I'm excited to hear your journey and that's a really sizable bookkeeping practice. But first off, before we go too far down this path, can you share with the audience a bit of your background? How did you become who you are today?
OV: 02:20 Yeah, that's a good question. So, um, my career really started, uh, at my parents' home hardware store. They owned a small home hardware store in a suburb of Vancouver and it really was a community gathering place and I ran the cash register. So it was like the old fashioned kind where you had to count back change, you know, pretty unsophisticated. But I, I guess that's where my passion for numbers and entrepreneurship really came from. I then had a brief stint as a, as a busboy at a seafood and steak house, but stayed really closely connected to my family's businesses while I was in university. I just went in with the idea that I do a general business degree, but then I actually found that I was pretty good at accounting. So I decided to go through a CPA recruit and I landed a job at KPMG.
OV: 03:15 And really the euphoria of working at a big firm. It was a lot taken, but I really felt like I landed my dream job. And so I started climbing the corporate ladder. I was there for about eight years and actually really enjoyed it. But then, you know, I was kind of at that point where I was going, is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? And really the answer was no. So I jumped out. I tried something completely different, worked on the launch of a local car share program called Evo car share and was responsible for fleet and customer experience. So about the furthest thing from accounting possible. Did that for a year, loved it. And then meanwhile connected with a former client of mine. And uh, just a year after leaving KPMG being with that car share program, we launched Enkle.
MP: 04:06 Wow, that's really cool. And, and such an interesting journey of being, you know, growing up in small business and then going into a very large organization and then getting pulled back into what you're doing today. What, what's, what's it been like, uh, from start-up of this bookkeeping firm to, to today?
OV: 04:29 I'd say it's been an amazing ride. I mean the really exciting thing about bookkeeping is you can have such a huge impact on business and layer that on with the technology that's available to us today. And it can be quite powerful for small businesses. But like any business, it really was starting a business, you know, starting from scratch, you know, day one, January 4th, 2016 was basically just in an office. You know, March 2016, I hired my first employee and then we've more or less added a person every month since then. But you know, there's been no shortage of growing pains. I mean, you know, I worked at KPMG, I didn't really have a whole lot of bookkeeping experience, so I had to, you know, self train myself on a lot of the tools. But the one thing that I'm really proud of is that we, we've really listened to customers from the beginning and I'm very passionate about small business and enterprise just because of my, you know, my family's business history. And so very early on I would have conversations with clients about, or potential clients about what was important to them. And we've really, over time just improved our service to really have a service that is focused around the owner business.
MP: 05:58 MMM. And when you started your business, did you, like, you're at 15 staff now, did you, what was your vision when you started?
OV: 06:09 My vision was, and still is to grow a huge bookkeeping business that provides small business owners with more than just bookkeeping, but provides business owners with a solution to all of their accounting and finance knowledge gaps, if you will. You know, it's funny, I was speaking to a potential client the other day and she said, you know, we have these questions on an ongoing basis. We like recurrently wondering should we rented a new space? And she said, well, we go to our lawyer for those questions, then that doesn't really fit there. It's not really within the realm of what our lawyer does. We go to our year-end accountant. It also doesn't really fit into the realm of what they do or you kind of that pillar for us. And that's exactly what we strive to be. So we provide you with your bookkeeping. But if you want to have a conversation about making a business decision with financial implications, which you know, everything has a financial implication, give us a call and we leave that right. The door opens for our client.
MP: 07:18 That's beautiful.
OV: 07:29 Yeah. You know, that's one of the things that I, I've seen in the past worked so well in that bringing the financial clarity to decisions is so powerful and, and it's rare, it's rare out there that it exists. Owners are actually making decisions based on sound financial clarity, right? It's like kind of pulling behind a curtain. And when you provide that, you, you really open up the opportunity for a business owner to actually be successful that they could make decisions that are, are actually more accurate.
MP: 08:01 Absolutely.
MP: 08:03 Now, you know, I've worked and talked to so many different bookkeepers and worked with so many different bookkeepers and it's always interesting to see the view of the world view of the different owners. Right? So you, here you are a bookkeeper. You've got an interesting background, uh, in that you, you didn't train to be a bookkeeper. You didn't really set out to be a bookkeeper, but yet you ended up doing that solid, strong accounting background. But yet you've been able to really quickly grow the firm where I've spoken to bookkeepers who maybe get stuck in, you know, the, they have the ability, they have the skills, they have everything, but yet their business doesn't grow as fast. Why do you think that is for you?
OV: 08:47 So while you know, kind of your average accountant, you know, I love numbers. I can get really deep into the details. I am at the heart to really an entrepreneur. Um, and I love the idea of building something. And so this business in many ways was the perfect combination of my skillset, really my accounting background with my entrepreneurial ambitions. And unlike a lot of bookkeepers and accountants, I love sales. Sales are what gets me up in the morning. You know, it's what I love doing. I love talking to small business owners about how we can add value to their business. And I think very early on being able to focus on sales. I mean, I've always been involved in a certain level of detail and I always will be, but early on, really focusing on sales that have what has allowed us to grow this quickly.
MP: 09:45 And that's, and that's powerful. And I think you know that it's so interesting, like when you say sales, right? I'm sure right away everyone that's listening right now, you the listener right now in your car at your desk, you're going, oh, but I don't like sales. Right? And then right, and then you said what you're really interested in is, is finding out how we can add value to your client's businesses. Now that's the disconnect I think for a lot of people like going out. So, Hey, I'm going, I'm putting on my sales hat, I'm going to go out and sell something. It's really, really what you're doing is you're like, I'm just going out to find the people that I can help. And for you, when you find those people, it's clear, clearly demonstrating that you can help them. And it's that process that you love of, of actually converting them to a client.
OV: 10:35 Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, sales are probably not the right term there because sales, you know, it's not superficial selling. I'm selling something because I actually believe that we're delivering value to a business owner and being passionate about what you do and about what you're able to do for a business. I mean that's, that's what really excites me. And I think that should really excite every single bookkeeper and accountant out there.
MP: 11:02 That's exciting. And that's exactly the message we love to try and get across here is that, so everything you're saying, the things that you're doing, you're, you're, you are selling, but people are afraid of selling and it's, it's hard to not say that you're selling cause that's what you're doing, but really you found something that you believe in, that you love and you're, and you have no problem sharing it passionately with other people. And that sells itself. And so when, if, if people, if the listener right now can connect with, hey you, and this whole conversation has been about that, right? You are, the need out there for, for businesses is great. There is a great need for business owners needing financial clarity to make better business decisions. But that's not going away anytime soon. And if you and your all the listener here is a person that is, you know, proficient at that, loves doing that, uh, if you can connect those two and just passionately demonstrate that to people in the world, they will just want to buy from you.
OV: 12:01 Absolutely.
MP: 12:03 Yeah. That's, that's fantastic. Well, you actually wrote an article on Linkedin. It was the first introduction that I had, uh, of you and it was an interesting one. It said why I quit my dream job. Uh, what, what did you hope to get out of writing that article? And I'd love to hear sort of what some of the aftermaths have been any feedback that you've gotten from that.
OV: 12:29 Absolutely. So why equip my dream job? I wrote that article to really give back and to share my story with others. My, my hope there was that if I could inspire others to take that leap, then really that article was worthwhile. The hardest thing about starting a business, especially as a risk-averse accountant or bookkeeper, the hardest thing is just jumping into it and committing to doing it. You know, once you're in there, there's no shortage of challenges, but really so many people just don't make that first initial leap. So I was hoping to inspire others to just take the plunge. And since writing the article, this feedback has been phenomenal. I've had people reach out to me on Linkedin to just, you know, um, to ask me to, to speak to. I've spoken to a few people that I didn't know about their challenges with making a decision like that and it's been really nice to be able to help people with that journey.
MP: 13:45 You know, there is a, it, we're definitely gonna put the link up in the show notes so people will be able to read that. But I know for a fact that a lot of our listeners are people who are planning and preparing to be in business for themselves and to have their own bookkeeping firm and to quit their, their, their job day. I say day job is the, you know, their daily work that they're doing that that earns them and pays for the light bill and all that good stuff and they dream of it. And the dream sometimes in conversations that I've had with some people, it's like it's a long dream. It's like 24 months, 36 months to do this. What would be your advice to le, to the listener that is contemplating these, these thoughts? What's your take on it?
OV: 14:30 You know, I would say if you feel like this is something you want to do, don't delay. My business partner and I had started talking in 2015 about starting this business and I said to him, Oh, you know, I've got to wait for these things to happen and we'll start in February or, and then actually what I did is I escaped for beach holiday in November 2015 got really inspired, read a couple of really great books, came back and I quit my job that day and we launched earlier than we expected. I would encourage people who are thinking about doing something like this, to just ask yourself, why are you holding yourself back? What is it that's really in your way? And a lot of times you'll find it's just your own fear. And if you can just isolate that and recognize that it's just yourself getting in the way of you achieving this, this dream, then I'd say, you know, just jump in, do it. You know, it's like jumping into a pool of really cold water, but you'll be okay.
MP: 15:42 Absolutely. I was like, oh yeah, cold water. It's like, oh, that doesn't sound very good, but it's a, it's the truth, right? It's your body adjusts to it very quickly and you start moving, you get warm and away you go. Um, you know, and this whole stream of thought around just taking action, I think it applies to also people who are already in business and they're growing their business. Like, okay, hey, we're going to go from, you know, we're going to hire staff perhaps, or we're going to go find some new clients. We're going to go from 50 to a hundred k, whatever it is. It's like that next milestone. Often people put a very in, I find in this industry anyway, I mean there are other industries where I'd say people think that they're going to do way more in way less time. However, in this industry, and you said it, accountants and bookkeepers are risk-averse perhaps. And so, and also looking at the numbers and trying to, you know, have a clarity and make good solid decisions. So then I think the timelines get stretched. So you were in business, now you had a partner and you, you, it sounds like there was some good planning and, and you're committed to taking this action, but you started and then three months later you're hired your first staff member. What would you say to those that are thinking about hiring a staff member and saying, Oh, you know, I don't know if we're ready yet?
OV: 17:06 Yeah. You know, it's a little bit scary hiring your first employee. For me, it was like, okay, wow. It's not only me now that you know that I have to pay for I'm responsible for this other person's livelihood essentially. But until you have that first employee, your ability to really grow and take the business to the next level is quite limited. You know, there's only so many hours in a day. So taking the plunge on that first employee is, is really important. And I'd say do it sooner rather than later. I mean, I know that you know, when you're a new business, you have of course, limited, limited resources and there's, let's face it, limited revenue coming in the door, but the quicker you can figure out how to find that first hire, the quicker you'll be able to scale up and grow faster.
MP: 18:02 I love it, you know, for, for anyone who's scaled quickly or scaled at all for that matter, it's, it's the same feedback that, uh, that comes in and it is, Eh, do it sooner. You're never 100% ready. You never will be 100% ready. So just get it done. And I think what's cool about that is, and you mentioned that it's like you, you now have somebody that you have to provide for, it creates this, it's like a forced saving program. A mortgage for instance, when you buy a home is a forced savings program. Whereas if you, you know, said, okay well I'm going to do it another way and just save all that money. Well, he better be a really good saver cause there's, there are no structures set up to actually have that done. Whereas, you know, it's, it can be very powerful. Now it's daunting and for sure don't want to say just go out there and do something. Just go and hire somebody. It's got to come from a sound decision making. What would you say you needed to put together and put in place in order for you to make that first hire? Was there a specific revenue stage that you wanted to get to or like pipeline? What was the thinking of the thought process for you?
OV: 19:11 Um, it really was pipeline. It was, it was a matter of, okay, I have x number of clients and I'm doing the bookkeeping myself by pipeline looks really strong and even half of these clients close, I'm going to be in trouble. And so I remember that day actually and I went, okay, so put together a job description, put it up on craigslist and sound a really solid person, really solid bookkeeper fairly quickly.
MP: 19:42 Very cool. You know, and literally today, this morning I had a conversation with one of our, um, impure bookkeeping licensees, uh, looking to hire first staff, right? And in fact, to the point where clients like referral partners have said, look, I can't send you any more. I'm not going to send you any more referrals until you have a staff member. Because they love, they love working with the business, but they're like afraid that it's gonna happen, that this person's going to, you know, implode. So all the signs are there, but yet still worried. And what if, what if, what if, and I almost feel like this, this, uh, this podcast episode may very well be specifically for this person and I'm trying to be, I'm trying to keep it anonymous here so I'm not saying any, any, anything, but, uh, you know, what, what would be your advice for this person?
OV: 20:40 I would say what is potentially holding back this person, and I don't know this for sure is a loss of control and you know, being uncomfortable with not knowing every single detail. Um, you know, if it's finances, you know, that's a different story. But a lot of times I think it is a matter of just not being willing and not being able to let go. But you know, make sure you spend the time interviewing Sandra that I even put candidates through a test. We get them to do a two-part test. One is a test on the accounting software that we use on zero and the other is a technical knowledge test. Uh, but once you've put somebody through that, you can get a pretty good idea of their skillset and a little bit of time with them on personality and you'll find the right person ultimately. But then what that person's going to allow you to do is think about things on the file that you otherwise wouldn't have when you were brought down in the details. So you will very quickly find that, you know, you're able to review things very quickly and get a good grasp on the file and you will not lose control. And you know, your clients will ultimately be happy that you are, you know, involving other team members. People get it.
MP: 22:05 Absolutely.
MP: 22:13 I'm just delighted for this person getting direct feedback from you. I think it's, it's a, it's bang on and, uh, and it's exciting for anyone in this position. It's an exciting time. It's a daunting time. There's, Eh, there are lots that can go wrong and there, you know, there's still the fallout of, of growth. Right. And you mentioned a few things where you know, growing pains, uh, so it's not all going to be at one, I don't want to say like, Hey, the staff's going to solve all your problems. We never want to say that, but they're there. They're there. It's if you want to scale and grow and you want to continue to offer uh, an excellent service, you need to have people in place. What were some of the growing pains that you've gone through?
OV: 22:56 Well, there are many. You know, there are, um, there are a couple of, I'd say significant growing pains that we experienced. One was on the process side, you know, process, consistency across files that uh, establishing that age is very important. The problem is when you start the business, you don't really know what the process should be. So you basically take things the way that your clients do them and you just kind of repeat them and do them that way. But you can't let that go on for too long. That would be my advice. You know, once you've got five clients, you need to start thinking about consistency and process between clients. And that's where your best practices should start evolving is really, you know, at that I think five clients stage. So I'd say the process was a challenge for us. It will always be a challenge for us and it shouldn't be a challenge for us and we will always work to make our processes better and more efficient.
OV: 24:01 That's been one challenge I'd say we've faced. Another challenge is staffing. So you know, growing really fast, we indeed have to hire a lot of people. And um, I think being the optimistic person that I am, I often, you know, when I would initially interview people, I would only tell them about how great it was going to be. And what I've learned is if I wasn't giving people an accurate picture of what the job truly was, then you know what, it just ultimately wasn't fair to them. Because in a, in a business-like ours that's growing really fast, you don't get a lot of the stability that you get in a typical firm just because there's new clients being added constantly in their existing processes are being improved. So you have to be willing to work in a really quickly changing organization and you don't get some of those resources that you have been in more stable, established firms. So I now today spend a lot of time with potential hires, multiple meetings, telling them truly about what their day is going to look like. And I've found that since doing that staff have a clear understanding coming in of what to expect. Oh yeah. And did I mentioned that we're hiring?
MP: 25:28 Yeah, of course. I love it. It's beautiful. You know, there is a little story that I like to talk about when we're talking about hiring the number one, uh, I guess it would be the position or trade that has the highest or the highest job satisfaction. The job with the highest job satisfaction is actually demolition workers and demolition workers. The reason being is that demolition workers come to work, they knock things down and when they're knocked down they go home. And so they know essentially they know exactly what it is that they need to do. They know exactly how to do it and they know exactly when it's been done to perfection. And those three criteria assist systems and process and everything you've, you've, you've been working on and developing and you're talking about onboard, uh, hungering onboarding and training and more communication is you're just continuing to provide that information that satisfies those three things. What is it that you want them to do? Uh, exactly how you want them to do it and enable to be able to know when they've done a good job of it. And if you can do that, you have people punching out and going home and, you know, saying, I love my job.
OV: 26:50 Right, right. That's brilliant. I love it.
MP: 26:53 Yeah, it's really simple. When I heard that, I'm like, that light bulb went off, right? It's maybe I want to become a demolition worker. We could see, right. Let's get a big wrecking ball and knock stuff down. So, but I think it's powerful and I think, uh, that many forget about that component of things and, and, and think that because they've hired somebody that those people will come and, and, and just know how to do the job. And that creates problems because people don't know anything. They know what they know. And when we know things, we have the curse of knowledge. We know what we know and we don't know what we don't know. And it's hard to decipher between what you do and don't. So you've obviously been able to do that. Now I, I know we're running at a time where you probably have a conversation that goes into the hours, but I really like to know, like from your pipeline generating, I'm sure this has gotta be a question of our listener right there thinking how have you been able to generate enough pipeline to feed this business?
OV: 27:53 You know, it really comes down to, uh, relationships. So you hear a lot of people today talking about search engine optimization and content and this, that and the other. Those, those are really great long term strategies. But my advice to anybody starting out as focused on the relationships that you have, those are the most powerful sources of referrals really. That is what has done it for us. When I decided to launch the business, I went back to KPMG and had tons of meetings with, with people, with partners that I worked with. And those relationships really helped. I mean they, we've received tons of business, um, through KPMG, through other firms, uh, other professionals that we, um, have gotten to know over the last couple of years. And really that's, that's uh, boots on the ground having coffee meetings approach. You know, in the first few months of starting the business, I had a few hundred coffee meetings. It was a lot of coffee, but a lot of great conversations came out of it and a lot of it didn't lead to clients immediately. But you know, people remember, you know, they remember those conversations, they remember that you reached out. So don't, don't underestimate the power of good old fashioned relationships would be my advice there.
MP: 29:22 I love it. And, you know, you said, you know, SEO and content and all these good things, long play stuff, uh, relationships will definitely not be as long a play and the ROI on a cup of coffee and an hour of your time or even 30 minutes of your time, a much better ROI. A lot of people spend on burning up a lot of money chasing after, you know, advert paid for click advertising. All these different things that do really well and right can work. But again, those are, I would say strategies that a business like yours would be entertaining because you have the budget, you have things figured out. Anything below, I would say 150,000 to $200,000 in revenue should be focused on exactly what you're talking about, which is
MP: 30:10 absolutely
MP: 30:11 for relationships, calling up people, going for coffee meetings, uh, you know, nurturing current and developing new.
OV: 30:19 Absolutely. I'll let you in on a little secret. So we just,
MP: 30:22 I love secrets.
OV: 30:25 We just redid our website. Um, I think we launched it in late August, early September this year. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, the first website we had was just there for the purpose of having a website like it, it did nothing. I wasn't particularly fond of it. So you can imagine like really a year and a half, over a year and a half until I got the website that I wanted. And really, because that wasn't the focus, the focus was building relationships.
MP: 30:55 Beautiful.
OV: 31:01 You know, it's great to hear that. And I think it's, it's probably relieving for so many and that the website, it's a permission to just have a basic website that you don't have to spend a ton of money on. And it really, its purpose. And my belief is that the purpose of a website for a small business is to, is to play a role in your sales funnel, which is the evaluation stage. When someone says, Hey, you should go work with Omar, well I'll send you his website. And that person does that. And they go, oh, got it. You know he's got a website, the Gal has got a website, whatever that case would be. It's like that's the check, check that box and move on. Yeah, they're not going to sit there and read, you know, 50 pages of content there, you know, and if they, if they come across you in a Google search, I mean it's a different situation altogether.
MP: 31:50 You need a totally different website for handling that type of inquiry, right? Different, different things going on in a person's mind where if, if so-and-so says, you know, their best friend says you need to go work with Omar is a very different mindset than finding somebody online. So really freeing. I think for small businesses out there, what's coming across to me is that if we were gonna give homework, which nobody likes homework, right? But this kind of homework is gonna make you money. So the homework is calling somebody up today or tomorrow and book a coffee meeting. Now, Omar, you've done, like in the beginning you did hundreds of coffee meetings. Do you still do those coffee meetings? You still do in coffee meetings?
OV: 32:32 I still do. And it's almost like it's become, in a weird way, it's a habit. It's just something that I love doing. So today I've got two of them booked. I mean, well pretty well I'd say in a week I still do eight to 10 of them.
MP: 32:47 Beautiful. And so how to help our listener out, what's the steps to booking and, and having a powerful coffee meeting.
OV: 32:55 You know, it's surprising. I have asked so many people out for coffee and very rarely will a person say no. It's bizarre. It's, I've, I've approached some pretty high profile people. Here's an example, well I don't know if you'd call them high profile, but there's this really cool sandwich shop near us. They have multiple locations, daisy busy. And I just approached the guy on LinkedIn and said, hey, you know, love your shop. I'm there every other day. I would love to just tell you about what I'm doing. I've started this business. We had two meetings. It didn't lead to anything but I followed up every six months and he just started another business that became a client on Friday. So you know, it's just, it's just a matter of reaching out. That's all it takes.
MP: 33:49 Beautiful. And I'm guessing that when you have that initial coffee meeting with now there's going to be a couple of different coffees that you're going to meet with past people. You, you know, current, existing relationships. This is a cold relationship that you turned to warm and actually, you know, long process. So let's start with an easy one. Let's do the ones that you, you know, the person you book a coffee meeting, what are you talking about in this coffee meeting?
OV: 34:13 Surprisingly, not much in the way of trying to sell it. It's really listening to people. I always approach it as really a social meeting first. It's a matter of just reconnecting. Hey, you know, I've started this business, I would love to reconnect. And you spend the first good chunk of the meeting just talking about the person and how they're doing. And from there, really the topic of what you're doing in the conversation about your new business will come up. And don't hesitate to just say, you know, if you or anybody you know, you know, needs help with this, I'd, I'd love to speak to them. Um, and try saying that I've tried doing that a few times and it'll feel like second nature.
MP: 35:02 I just love it. This is great. Easy homework for everybody who doesn't like coffee. And if you don't like coffee, have chocolate or steam milk. That's correct. But go out with people, get out into the world. Invite some easy people that you already know that will say yes. Go have a meeting with them. Find out all about them, what's going on in their life, what are they challenged with, where are they trying to get to? And eventually, the conversation will lead to what you're up to. And away it goes. And a, I just love this Omar. It's so simple. It's part of the simple things that simply work. And you've been so generous in sharing some of your success secrets and I'm sure it's gonna provide value and some success for our listener. Great. Now, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience or you mentioned you're hiring a, I mean, we'll have a link to your website in the show notes, but if there's anything else, I'd love to give you the opportunity to do that.
OV: 36:00 Really. I think what it comes down to is just if you want to start a business or you want to grow your existing business, just trust yourself. Figure out what it is that you're passionate about. What gets you up in the morning. For me, it's dealing with small business owners and helping to make small business owners grow their business and improve their business. Focus on those things and it'll all just come together. Really. That may be somewhat of a romantic way of looking at it, but, uh, I really do believe that. So, you know, if you want to do it, just just know why you're doing it and, and go after it.
MP: 36:41 I love the, I love the inspirational message. Just go out there and do it. You've done it, Omar, and you've been an incredible role model, I'm sure for so many of our listeners today. So thank you for joining us.
OV: 36:54 Thank you for having me, Michael. I really appreciate it.
MP: 36:56 It's our pleasure completely. That wraps another episode of the successful bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time,
MP: 37:12 goodbye