TSBK - Episode 63 - Rachel Fisch.png
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Over 30,000 bookkeepers.

According to the Canadian Revenue Agency, that's how many there are in the Great White North.

You can only imagine what the number is in the United States.

But, here's the thing, many bookkeepers across North America haven't taken leadership with their client relationships.

Many choose to “fit in” by adapting to the software and workflows their customers currently have as opposed to letting the clients know how they want the working relationship to operate.

According to Rachel Fisch, Accountants Group Leader at Sage Canada, the reason is bookkeepers are at odds with saying NO. They're kind people and problem solvers. They usually don't like conflict.

But today, it's important to remember one thing.

YOU have the choice to select the clients, software and workflows you want to work with.

Hopefully, this episode will help you realize that.

During this interview, you'll learn...

  • How to help your clients see you as a valuable partner in their business success

  • How to identify when you have a terrific or horrible client

  • How to attract amazing customers through the use of a powerful spreadsheet exercise

To find out more about Rachel, click here.

To follow her on Twitter, here's the link.

To learn about the Sage One Certification Tour, go here.

To discover the Canadian Sage Advocates Facebook Group, visit here.

To let Rachel know about your client spreadsheet exercise results, you can chat with her in The Successful Bookkeeper Facebook Group by joining here.


EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

Michael Palmer: 01:28 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a fantastic one. Our guest has trained thousands of bookkeepers in hundreds of training sessions across Canada and beyond in both desktop and online accounting software since 2012 she is currently the accountant's group leader at Sage Canada and she is very kind to take time out of her busy schedule to join me today on The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. Welcome to the show, Rachel Fisch.

Rachel Fisch: 02:03 Thank you so much, Michael. I have no pressure with that.

MP: 02:07 Fantastic. Well, I have wanted to have you on the show for a very long time. You are so well known. You're so, uh, so much of a, a very nice personality and a person that is really the wind beneath the wings of the bookkeeping industry here in Canada and I know a cross-match really around the world and so you're very well respected and I think our listener is going to just absolutely love hearing your story and having you as a part of the show today.

RF: 02:32 Thank you so much. That's so kind of be my call.

MP: 02:35 Yeah. Well, well first off, Rachel, for those that don't already know you, can you share a bit of your career background leading up to this point where you are now today with Sage Canada? 

RF: 02:49 Sure, absolutely. Um, so I'm, you know, as you mentioned most recently, uh, accounting group leader for Sage Canada. So I've been doing that for just over three months, so it's still very new. Uh, prior to that I was a National Bookkeeping leader for Deloitte and Canada. Uh, prior to that I had, I did have my own bookkeeping firm for about four and a half years out of Brandon, Manitoba. So it was kind of a small-town firm. And then prior to that I just worked in accounting roles in the industry. So, uh, you know, when talking to bookkeepers, whether they're a bookkeeper, you know, within an organization as an employee or whether they have their own firm or even if they work in mid-market or above, you know, size firms. I've kind of been there. I've, I've had that experience and so I love now, you know, being able to have all of Sage resources behind me now continuing to connect and to advocate those bookkeepers. So I'm really excited to do that. 

MP: 03:38 Wow. So you've, you've had quite a journey in your career. Talk about what led, like the different things that you gained along the journey that have had started to help you where you are today. 

RF: 03:53 Oh Gosh. I don't think your podcast is long enough, Michael. I think I think one of the things that I've been really intentional about is making sure that when things end, and sometimes it's a positive thing and sometimes it feels really negative at the time. There's always something to take from that to go to the next space. So, for example, you know, with working in the industry, I was starting to compete. I was at the controllership level, you know, after 15 years. So I was starting to compete with people who had their designations. I didn't, uh, I was kind of caught in the mix of when CPAs were kind of merging the CMS and CGAS and CA's and Canada. And so I was kind of caught in the middle of that in the program that I was in, wasn't continued. Um, and so I was like, well, this is, this is who I am. 

RF: 04:43 This is what I do. And the right employer will, you know, still be okay with me not having a designation. And so I did, as I said, you know, get up to that controllership level. But it was really starting, I was really starting to see that that was going to continue to get harder kind of the further up the career ladder I climbed. I also, you know, had a little girl at home, pregnant with my second baby and just thought there, there must be a better way to be using the skills that I had. Um, without, you know, having to compete with people who did have their designation or without, you know, being employed at companies that really didn't understand that I was actually on their team. And the worst day of the month was not the day that I presented the financial statements, you know? And so that kind of reflected on me a little bit, but I just felt that there's gotta be a better way to help smaller businesses. 

RF: 05:32 Um, and so that's actually when I started going into business on my own, it was after the birth of my second daughter. And so I did my business plan and I did all of that and there was definitely a need for it. And I think that I mean, one of the great things about bookkeeping and accounting is that there is always a need for it. Every single business needs bookkeeping functions done. Who does it, of course, differ based on the company. But I don't think it's anything that's going away any, any time soon. The opportunities are just too huge. And so, uh, one of the things that, um, I did, I found as I was continuing to build my own business was like in Canada for example, there are over 30,000 bookkeepers. And yet I found, felt like I was like recreating the wheel. 

RF: 06:14 I was all by myself and my, you know, basement office and, and, uh, you know, trying to help these clients and every client had different demands and different expectations of what that work looked like. And I kinda figured there's gotta be a better way. So I started kind of connecting, but keepers in the community and building community to help us connect with each other. And it was amazing how much, especially with the introduction of cloud technology, you know, that being online all the time, that's just kind of a part of life now. And so it was amazing then how collaborative this community is in being able to, you know, share workflows or share tips and tricks or all of those things to really elevate the profession and for everybody to be doing a great job. I found that, um, being online and, and sharing and collaborating with, with other bookkeepers is definitely something that did not happen in my hometown. I think that everybody kind of saw each other as competition. I didn't, I felt there was enough business for everybody else, but, but that nature of collaborations certainly wasn't alive and well in my community for sure. 

MP: 07:23 Interesting. You know, it's such a, a powerful thing that you did and the, you know, I think anybody who can build a community like that, you really do see things differently in terms of the competitive landscape. You can think about competitors, but there's so much business out there as you've already mentioned, that you, you can get so much further by collaborating with others and you, you're one of those people that, that sees the world that way, which is why you're, you're likely able to build such strong relationships with people. 

RF: 07:56 Oh, for sure. Yeah. 

MP: 07:58 And when did you see, when you were running your business and building this community, the people that you did collaborate with, what, when did you see as their biggest challenge out there? 

RF: 08:10 Oh Gosh. I mean, there's definitely a few. I do something new. This world we can definitely do. Okay. Um, I think in some cases it's pretty typical when you start your own bookkeeping practice or when you start taking on clients, it's pretty typical to just adopt the workflows that your client has. You adopt the tools and the accounting software that your clients have and you just kind of make yourself fit in their mold or their definition of what a bookkeeper is. And it really feels like the bookkeeping industry as a whole, as gone through this, a bit of a transformation to say, you know what, I'm allowed to pick what kind of clients I have. I'm to pick what kind of accounting software I want to use and I'm allowed to pick what those workflows look like to the point where if a client wants to do business with me, I actually now in, in, in some cases, these bookkeepers almost need the permission. 

RF: 09:12 You now have the ability to say, you know what? No. Um, you're not a great fit for the way that I like to work. You're not in an industry that I really feel confident in and specialize in. And so, you know, thank you very much for your interest, but I'm going to have to say no. And I think that nature when you think about what type of person it takes to be a really good bookkeeper, they are usually very giving very problem solvers. They are invested in their clients and their client's businesses. And it's like all of those things are kind of almost at odds with saying no to a client. And I think that's probably the biggest challenge is feeling empowered or you know, for those who need the permission. I'm not giving you permission to feel empowered to say, you know what? 

RF: 10:05 I know who I am as a professional. I know how, how I like to work in the industries that I like to work with and the workflows that I like. And I also really like, you know, a certain demographic or psychographic. There's a certain client out there that I really like to work with. So I'm gonna save my time and my effort for those types of clients that are in those industries that I love. And so that, this is what I'm really seeing the shift of is it's okay to not just walk in and feel like you have to fit in somebody else's mold. You're actually allowed to create the mold and then see which of those, you know, potential clients fit that. So I think it's a huge challenge because it does go against the nature of our, our helpful nature and our wanting to solve issues for our clients, but I think it has the absolute most amazing result because you end up happier with happier clients and ultimately more profitable. Actually. 

MP: 10:58 Absolutely. 

MP: 11:07 Just absolutely love that way you've said it, I don't know that anybody said it that clearly on the successful bookkeeper podcast, but it's definitely right in line with what we believe over here. And that is that you, the listener when you actually start to dictate the way things are going to go, that's leadership. And Michael Gerber referred to it in one of our very early episodes, the author of E-myth bookkeeper, and about 20 other E-myth books. Uh, but, but he, what he was saying is that bookkeepers are invisible because they're just doing it the way that it's always been done. They're actually walking in saying, okay, I'm here to do whatever it is you me to do. But actually they, the peer person that's hiring you actually, most times it doesn't know what they're doing. Right. And they don't have it. Right. And so it's, I love that you've given everybody permission and we're gonna really ramp that up. You all have permission. Did Jake, did you hear Rachel? You've got permission to do this. You know, uh, you've got the permission to actually be a leader, to actually say, you know what? This is the way I've learned it. This is the way it works best. This is the way I've proven and validated that it works for me. And for, you know, there are reasons why and do that and, and your clients will appreciate that. In fact, they will want to pay you more for it. 

RF: 12:31 Yeah. Because then they see you, they see you as a partner in their business. Right. When you, when you can show them that you are personally invested in the success of their company and you're not just a data recorder, you know, taking numbers from paper and plugging it through a machine and sticking it out with financial statements on the other end. Like our, our profession has gone so far beyond that. Um, the amount of data that we have access to now is phenomenal. The tools that we have now to work with that data is phenomenal. Like we are so much, we are in such a better place to be able to advise our clients on the success of their business in a way that bookkeepers have never been in that position before. And one of the great things that I love, um, you know, a lot of people are, what's the difference between bookkeepers and accountants and what I've seen in, especially through working, um, at my time at Deloitte, I think that has just kind of reaffirmed this, that it's really the bookkeeper that owns the relationship with a client. They're the ones that the client is going to be calling on a daily basis when something, you know, goes wrong or I want to buy a truck, should I lease it? Should I pay cash for it? Like the bookkeepers, the first person that they call, um, they are much more invested in the day to day operations of the business. They know what's going on within the business. And I think that just, you know, elevates the whole profession to really be seen as that business partner that's really invested in their success. 

MP: 13:54 I love that. Um, it really just this morning I was connecting, a friend of mine who's a CFO works with a lot and he's a part-time CFO, works with different companies, helping them get ready for big financing rounds or all these different, you know, high-end type things that you wouldn't typically hear about in small, medium-sized business. But he, he reached out to me and said, I need to have a coffee with you. Uh, it didn't tell me why. And I sat down and he's a great friend, so I was like, no problem, but had a coffee with him. And he's like, let's say, you know, I'm going into these companies, these are big companies, you know, multimillion-dollar companies. And I go down to do my CFO work and the books are their mess. I don't know what anything is. It's not correctly done. I need to find great bookkeepers. And now he knows me because I know a lot of great bookkeepers. Right. But it just, it really solidified in my mind, and I mean we've been talking about this for a long time. It's like the need is so great. The need is so, but yet what's in the minds of bookkeepers mostly? And you said there are 30,000 bookkeepers, would you say? 30,000 bookkeepers in Canada? 

RF: 14:58 Uh, yeah. And that's just from the CRA stats. So I'm positive that there's way more than that. But when you, when you look at kind of the industry that sort of, it's just mind-boggling, isn't it?

MP: 15:06 Uh, as a lot of bookkeepers and you know, the typical belief out there is that they're not really providing that valuable of a service. Like it's, uh, you know, it's a good service needed Yasha we need that. But it's not like that critical artery need that if you lose that, but yet it is. And so I think it's stories like this that really get through, it's like what you're doing matters for a lot of people. So, uh, just love that. And you've got that experience from Deloitte to bring that in. I mean, that's the type of caliber of person that I was meeting with and yet people aren't talking about it. They're not thinking that way. 

RF: 15:48 Yeah, it was so funny. I was working on a client and uh, it was, it was kind of a rushed job. It was kind of a cleanup job. I'm sure you're really familiar with those. Submitted to the, um, to the accountant group. And the accountant was literally jumping up and down and giving me a hug. She's like, I didn't even know what good bookkeeping was until I saw that. And so it makes my heart a little sad that there is so much bad bookkeeping out there. But also to me it just means we have a huge opportunity to raise the standard of bookkeeping, to really take our industry seriously, to recognize the importance of it. Because again, from that comes, you know, do they are their finances in good shape to get the loans that they need to continue to operate or you know, for, for their tax situation, things like that. 

RF: 16:35 It all starts with books. So it is crucially important. You're absolutely right Michael. But it's just making sure that we can really elevate the standard, not only for the bookkeepers to make sure that we're pumping out great work, but also to change the minds of the rest of the industry, like accountants and those dealing with books so that they can recognize good bookkeeping and so that they know who their options are. Like as you said, your friend who reached out to you to make sure that they get good bookkeeping in the future. That there just isn't a tolerance for a bad book.

MP: 17:08 That's absolutely right. And it, it does take, you know, going back to what you said, it takes the industry to realize that a, it takes something to be a great bookkeeper. It takes education. I mean you're, you're about to do a roadshow, uh, through 10 cities with sage doing certification and training. I mean, it takes like, you know, people need to go out. They need to do that certification. They need to learn more about business. They need to learn about the jobs of other people. My father used to always say, always understand what other people are doing around you. So that you can support them and help them and know the game, right? And so as a bookkeeper to great, it takes work to be great, but the rewards for being great are far greater than the investment it'll take you to get there. 

MP: 17:57 And then the education that has to be done are things like you said, it's, it's the listener deciding what kind of clients do you want to work with. Uh, you, you make that up, you make that decision and you go out to the, to the market with that and you say yes and you say no. Uh, it gives you a different type of client when you're actually doing that. And so that's the beginning of it is be great. Have these things thought, thought through and that leads to being way more valuable and having a better business or business that will thrive and scale.

RF: 18:34 For sure. And I get asked quite often like, who is that client? Like how do I know when I've got that really great client? And the way that I kind of define it is the clients that email you and you just kind of roll your eyes and go, uh, not them again. And then there are the ones where I mean you could work with a lot and it's almost like you're energized working with them and you really again feel invested in their success. Those more, more of those, those ones that actually give you energy instead of sucking the life out of you. And so if in your own firm you're kind of looking at, well what kind of clients should I continue going after? Sometimes the answer is in your own, your own existing clients kind of go through and, and you know, list them across the top, maybe an excel spreadsheet or something like that. 

RF: 19:24 And then start listing qualities that you really like about that client or that you, you like about their company or whatever. And what you'll find is that those ones that give you energy, those favorite clients of yours, they're going to have some commonalities in the descriptions that you give them. And so a great way to know what clients to start taking on are going to have those descriptors as column commonalities as well. So they may be certain, as I said, psychographic or demographic, you know, single moms with their own home-based businesses. Like you could even get that specific. But then you know that when an opportunity comes for a large construction company with a hundred staff, they're probably, even though it may be may seem like a very profitable engagement, it really isn't going to fit within that client type that really energizes you and makes you want to invest in their success. 

MP: 20:20 I love that.

MP: 20:28 It's an excellent exercise. I mean it's maybe one of the most important exercises one can do in building their business and it's not just for bookkeepers, it's for any person that's selling to people and doing service business where they have to interact and work with these people. A is to do that exercise. Who do you like, where have you made the biggest difference and where have you made the most money? I mean that's those three things alone. Those are the three criteria. And absolutely put it in a spreadsheet. I mean, we've got a view, we're talking little bookkeepers here, right? We've got to have this organized. We have to have that. I definitely get that in that spreadsheet. And you know, it was just yesterday, my two and a half-year-old son, he, he said, daddy come over closer to me. And I said, okay. 

MP: 21:11 So I came over closer to him and he said, I said, what's up? He goes, I like you. And I set up. I like you too, but you know it, it made me feel amazing. And it's not often at this age, the age. Dot. Am I at that I'm at. There were people actually tell me that they liked me and say, come over and hang out with me. You know, I like you. I want to be your friend. I think there's a big message in what you're saying and what my son said yesterday and that is finding out who you really like and tell those people that you really like them when you're interacting with them. It's very powerful. And if you don't know who you like and what you want, you can't tell anybody what you like and what you want and therefore you can, you're never going to be able to leverage that power because this is work. You're doing this work every single day, day in and day out. Would you want to work with people you love and have fun with or do you want to work with people that you don't love and have fun? I mean, it's a rhetorical question, right? Yeah. So beautiful message. And I'm going to encourage everyone to, to, to do this and to post on the Facebook group that you've done this exercise and message Rachel and let, let her know that you've done this exercise in whatever you come up with. 

RF: 22:21 Tag me on that. That'd be awesome. I'd love to hear your stories. 

MP: 22:24 We'd love to know who you love working with and, and put that out there into the ether and uh, see what comes back. So that's, that just absolutely loves that exercise. And I, as I said, Rachel, where our conversation was going to go in places, we had no idea we code. 

MP: 22:43 And here we are. 

RF 22:44 Exactly. So you are passionate about training. What fuels that today and how do you, you know, how did, how did that become to be what you do? And I mean, it shows in your work, you're so passionate about it, you're out there all over the place, messaging about it. Uh, tell us more about it. 

RF: 23:04 You know what, it just all comes back from those early days when I was starting my own practice, kind of trying to figure it out. And I hated that feeling of not knowing like what I was doing or not knowing how to, you know, treat a client in a certain way. You know, all of those things that you kind of go through. And I just genuinely didn't want anybody to feel like that again. That's it. So if, whether it's, you know, talking about how to craft your professional identity, whether it's about how to choose what niche you're gonna go into or whether it's about making sure you know everything about the software that you're using so that you can confident in it and use it as efficiently as possible. I absolutely want to help you with that. Or whether it's how to use social media to really amplify your message, like all of those things, whatever it is that you're doing in your firm, you shouldn't ever, like even if it's a firm of one, you shouldn't ever feel like you don't know how to do it. 

RF: 24:05 Everybody else has already recreated the wheel. All you need to do is get on the bike. So there are enough people around you. There are enough bookkeepers in communities all over the place that I just don't feel like any bookkeeper out there should feel alone or that they're just figuring something out for the first time. And I'm so passionate about that, that I'll take that into, you know, kind of everything I do. So these last six weeks or so, I went across Canada in 14 different cities with our accounting technology tour from the am an Allen salmon technology to our, and so we were doing that. We had just 45 minutes to represent Sage. And yet I really wanted to make sure that we took that time not only to talk about the product and, and you know, things that we would love for you to learn about sage one and our other, our products out there, but also just about us as industries, as, as, as, as people, as, as, as community connecting with each other. And so it was really great to, you know, meet all the bookkeepers across Canada. And so now we're going to, you know, uh, go on another tour this time, our stage one certification tour, as you mentioned, 10 cities across Canada before Christmas. And then we're going to come back around before tax time. I promise we're not going to interrupt anybody during tax time. Again, just to make sure that they have all of the knowledge and resources they need to to again, never feel alone and never feel like they can figure something out. 

MP: 25:23 It's beautiful. We, we feel the same way here. It is, uh, the mortal enemy of any business owners to do it alone and to, and unfortunately, many people do feel alone, but it's communities like sage, uh, and uh, the technology seminar and the Institute of Professional bookkeepers and the, uh, the, uh, the ICB in the US, I mean there's all sorts of resources around you that are available. So I've been there, I've been where the low, the low point, it's like where you feel that you're alone often is the very difficult place to get out of that space. So do yourself a favor and don't let yourself get in that space by connecting, getting out there, connecting B e c a a seminar or something that you can get out of the office or wherever you're working to be amongst other people. It is so important to do so. Make a point of doing it, if not once, twice, four times a year, get out, go to these conferences, go to these training, be amongst your people. It will be worth the investment of time and money.

MP: 26:35 Absolutely. I just love it. And you are such an advocate for everyone doing this note, this 10 city a tour you're going to do, are you going to be there personally doing some of the training? What will that look like? 

RF: 26:42 I am actually, 

RF: 26:44 um, you know, again, I just started at Sage about three months ago and I wanted to, especially within this first year, take every opportunity I could to really connect with bookkeepers in our, in our community. And so, you know, I went on all 14 cities of that accounting technology tour. I will absolutely be at all 10 cities that we're going to again. And for this next year, I will try to be out as at a, to as many events as possible. I also have, uh, with me, especially for this certification tour, um, Mark Hubbard who is the program manager for the Accountants' group at Aage. And so, uh, the two of us are going to be out and across Canada as often as we can. I'm just connecting with you guys and again, making sure that you have all the knowledge and resources that you can to build your firm. 

MP: 27:28 That's incredible. Well, you know what, what an investment that your sage is making into, into the community, right across the country. And of course, there will be links, uh, on this episode. Just click down there and you can go and find out where those cities are. And, and of course we're, this, there will be, if you miss this one, there's going to be another. So get it on your calendar, go to the link, get it on your calendar and make sure, make sure you take advantage of that. So, you know, you're working a lot of change happening out there with technology. What are the gradients, bookkeepers need to thrive as new technologies appear? 

RF: 28:09 Oh Gosh. Oh, that's a big one. Um, yes, we want to see the recipe, right? These are ingredients we want the recipe for success. Yeah. Well, I think it's, um, I think there's a couple of things to keep in mind when we're talking about technology because I think that, um, I think that in the bookkeeping world, technology is just, it seems to be just hitting so hard and so fast. It really does feel overwhelming. Um, and it feels like it's hard to keep up with at all. Um, because again, there are more tools coming out all the time. What I would say is, you know, those, those apps or those tools that you do use learn them well, I think that people have the idea that they need to learn everything that's out there and they really don't, you know, you can kind of break down as one of the first things you can break down with technology is which are going to serve you in your firm and which you're going to serve your clients. 

RF: 29:12 So for example, when I look at an app, I look at it and say, okay, is this something that I'm going to use for myself to help me manage my clients and help me manage my workload? Or is this the type of app that I'm going to refer to a certain type of client that may need that function? So that I think that's the first thing to really differentiate is whether it's something that you know, only you need to, to use and to kind of become a bit of an expert on or whether you're actually going to start, you know, integrating these into your client's workflow. So that's, that's a good one. Another one is just being mindful of the technical intelligence of your clients as well. Um, even if there are tools that you have learned to love and that you are really excited about, sometimes your clients can't learn maybe quite as quickly as you. 

RF: 30:01 So just keep that in mind when you are teaching them new tools to make sure that, that you're not keeping them at a faster pace than they can handle as well. Just kind of remember how overwhelmed you were when you got hit with us. All this technology, keep that in mind as you continue to, uh, to teach your clients. So, yeah, I think it's just that, that mindfulness and, and also that you don't need to be trying or signing up for every webinar that comes your way or every app that gets launched because again, it becomes really overwhelming. So what I would say is, okay, out of all of these timesheet apps, for example, all these time tracking apps, I know the one that I really love. So when a new one comes out, it's not, oh, now I have to learn that one is how does it compare to that one that I know that I really love, that works great. 

RF: 30:52 And if it doesn't, then I don't even have to waste my time. You know, going to the Webinar or doing that, you can, usually apps do have comparative charts like on their websites and things, what they do and what they don't do. So use that first. You know, we don't get paid for the time that we're not working on our client's stuff. So, so just incorporate that into, uh, into your, your workflows and your regular daily life. Make sure that you can, you know, compare the apps that you need to, but not waste your time on things that you don't do.

MP: 31:23 Beautiful. 

MP: 31:31 Well said. I think you've nailed one of the big pain points is the time that goes into learning all these different apps and there's a lot of messaging in the marketplace around the technology. I mean, that's the job of technology companies to get their message out, to bring you aware whereof this and all of these things. There are definite benefits, but it's not like you've got to get this all done tomorrow. It is. There is a need right now, your most important need. Like I think what you're saying is, is your client, wherever your client is, and then look at how can we bridge that gap and bring people further along the technology ecosystem as, as you grow. But I don't think the overwhelming needs to be there and I'm glad that you brought that up. I think we hear that a lot. The overwhelm, you know, there's so much change, so many things are happening. Sometimes that can be negative stress. We'll turn it into positive stress and be excited about what, what's to come. 

RF: 32:30 Yeah. That there are bigger, better, you know, awesome tools coming out and actually switching over to the software world as I did just a few months ago, you know, prior to that was doing the job or I had my own firm or I was in a large practice being on the software side. It's been really interesting to kind of see that shift. And one of the things that I really respect is when software companies hire people who have done the job before, especially if they're audiences, accountants, and bookkeepers. So I would always consider the source, like, is this coming from the marketing department of a software company or is this coming from people who have done the work before and really know what bookkeepers value and what their clients value. So I usually keep that tucked in the back of my mind as well. 

MP: 33:17 Absolutely. I think that's, that's where what's powerful about any event that you go to where there are industry people that are in your industry, they're your peers, a demoing, showing, sharing, a very, very powerful and so much more, um, not that, that a software company can't demo and display and tell you everything that's great about it. But when you see somebody who's sitting next to you that's using in their own practice, I mean it's so much more powerful. 

RF: 33:43 Absolutely. Because then it goes from not from what the software is supposed to do, but then it shifts to how am I going to use this for my client? And it just kind of puts in context, uh, what your workflow would actually look like or how much of an impact it would make on your practice.

MP: 34:03 Absolutely. Rachel, this has been absolutely fantastic having you and I have a feeling we could probably keep on chatting for another couple hours. We'll definitely want to have you back and, and learn more about what you, what you've discovered through your, your roadshows and, and, uh, your work with sage. But until then, where can people find out more about you? 

RF: 34:26 Oh Gosh. Uh, so I'm on Linkedin. Uh, Rachel Fisch, I'm on Twitter at Fisch books and uh, we also have our Sage Facebook group, a Canadian Sage advocates. So look us up and I'd love to connect with you guys and of course on The Successful Bookkeeper. 

MP: 34:42 Beautiful. And we all have a bunch of links at the bottom where you can find out more about the tensity roadshow that's coming up in your area. Check for that, get it on your calendar. If not now, get it in for the next, uh, the next round. So again, we really enjoyed having you and we definitely want you to come on back.

RF: 35:05 Thank you so much, Michael.

MP: 35:08 That wraps another episode of the successful bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to the successful bookkeeper.com. Until next time, 

MP: 35:19 goodbye