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For bookkeepers, it can be a great thing, but also a scary one.

With all types of automated bookkeeping software and apps out there, some of you might be worried that your services may be obsolete because of new advances in technology.

According to today's guest, the co-founder and chair of the Institute of Professional Bookkeepers of Canada, Dianne Mueller, there is a way to make yourself valuable so you can thrive despite these uncertain times.

During this interview, you'll learn...

  • The one mindset shift that will help your business adapt and prosper during this rapidly changing digital age

  • Why you need to get out of your bookkeeping box to expand your network and build strong connections

  • Why you should learn from successful bookkeeping leaders to get where you want to be

To find out more about Dianne and Soma Small Business Solutions, visit here.

To learn about IPBC, visit this link.


Michael Palmer: 00:52 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today is going to be a great episode. I am honored to be joined with a very special guest. She's not only the owner of her company, so much small business solutions that is based on the sunshine, Beautiful Sunshine coast of British Columbia, but she is also the co-founder and chairman of the Institute of Professional Bookkeepers of Canada. Welcome to the podcast, Dianne Mueller.

Dianne Mueller: 01:20 Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here.

MP: 01:22 Yes, and it's our honor to have you here. And I'm excited too. You know, we often have conversations about the institute of professional bookkeepers on the show, but for all of our listeners that are listening from the other corners of the world, it is an association here in Canada. And I think everything that we're going to talk about is transferable, likely to the very best association that's wherever it's located in your part of the world. Uh, then, uh, the keyword being the best institute of professional bookkeepers is, in my opinion, the number one association for bookkeepers in Canada. And it's an amazing organization and it's great to have you on the show and we're going to dig deeper into that.

DM: 02:02 Okay. Well, thank you very much, Michael. We're actually celebrating our 10 year anniversary this year.

MP: 02:07 Wow. Exciting. And I'm sure we'll, we'll be celebrating at the conference, which we'll talk about in the show today, but your conference coming up and later part of this year, so it'll be a bit of a celebration anniversary celebration.

DM: 02:20 It will. That's quite a special stuff.

MP: 02:23 Awesome. Well before we get into all that good stuff. Let's talk a little bit about you, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up being where you are today.

DM: 02:32 Okay. Well, yes, my story, I've been a bookkeeper since 1988 it all started back with being a small business owner. My husband and I bought a company that he was working for at the time, a millwork shop and uh, we started running it and ran it for 15 years. Uh, he was kind of the production end of things and I looked after the books and when I discovered that I really enjoyed it. I liked the numbers. I actually be able to find ways for us to make more money and hit our bottom line. So I decided, hey, maybe I should be an accountant because I like this stuff. So I started looking into going back to school and getting a designation. And while I was going to school, I was fortunate enough to get a position at an accounting firm here in Vancouver. So I was working in this accounting firm and the first season came along in April and in the month of April, I worked 240 hours.

DM: 03:36 Well, that was not what I wanted to do. So I decided that to perhaps, um, actually being a public accountant was not really what I wanted. I wanted to be out there helping small businesses and uh, you know, looking after their books and their numbers. So I decided I would go to a loan and then I opened, um, my bookkeeping consulting practice, Soma small business solution part-time at first, that was back in 1997 and then full time in 2001 and it's kind of just been history since then. I never looked back. I absolutely loved it. Um, instantly there was so much business. I was turning it away in the first, you know, month or two started to grow the business and became a family business. Actually, my son, my daughter and my daughter in law and sister in law were all part of the Soma small business solutions after a couple of years.

DM: 04:32 So in the timeframe I started to reach out and look for other professional bookkeepers that were growing a business and doing the same type of thing that I was, I wasn't very successful. I really wanted to be in contact with and communicating and collaborating with professional bookkeepers. So in the fall of 2016, myself and three other bookkeepers, um, started talking about creating a professional association and it was January of 2007 that we signed the incorporation papers for our not for profit association really is no accident that it was called the Institute of professional bookkeepers of Canada. And that our designation is a certified professional bookkeeper because that was the goal at the time was to actually have an association that would have members that really wanted that, a professional look that we're going to run their businesses professionally and get away from, you know, the bookkeepers that don't have any real education or um, formal business. And we used to call them the kitchen table. Bookkeepers actually that would be competing with us, but we were usually the ones having to clean up the messes afterward. All three of us felt we had a real need out there for a professional organization that was going to protect both the business owner, the small business owner and professional bookkeepers and now 10 years ago.

MP: 06:08 Wow. All I love. I love your, your story and I, I think it's, it's interesting the 15 years of running your own business and really wanting to help others, small businesses do what you did, which was you said something very important, figuring out a way to make, keep more money in your bank account versus somebody else's bank account, which you know what business that's, that's the kind of bookkeeper you are. And what business owner wouldn't love having somebody like that on their team.

DM: 06:38 Absolutely. And I get that comment all the time. In fact, on my website, you'll see a few testimonials from my clients and they all mentioned that because she was a small business owner prior to being our bookkeeper, she brings that to the table and um, they love it.

MP: 06:54 Yeah. And then it is, and it's, I think, you know, it makes a lot of sense to me. The fact that you created this institute of professional bookkeepers and really wanted to have, because of your deep caring for businesses. It was, you know, you were helping clean up the message that was left behind, my bad bookkeepers. And so the whole concept of the institute is to have there be some way to vet and validate the quality or skill level, of a bookkeeper, which did not exist before.

DM: 07:27 That's right. That's exactly right, Michael.

MP: 07:29 Yeah. Now let's talk a little bit about the 10 years that you've watched this. This organization evolved. I'm sure it looks very different than it did in January 2007.

DM: 07:41 For sure. But you know what, it still has exactly the same purpose and exactly the same mission statement that we've never wavered from. And we've had for Sir ups and downs for sure. As we grew the association, it's not for profit. So, of course, we were doing this on, you know, shoestring money and as the memberships grew, we were able to develop more and more services. And, um, now we're at a point where we're, you know, we do webinars and training and regular information going out newsletters and of course new tests, always being evolving and making sure that we're keeping all of our members up to date with what's going on out there in the industry, what things are changing and also testing them to make sure that they're keeping their skills up so that they can provide that professional service to the small business owners, their clients.

MP: 08:36 Beautiful. Now your, your, the chair, uh, of the IPBC but you're also filling in right now as a CEO and part-time CEO.

DM: 08:45 Yeah.

MP: 08:48 What has that been like?

DM: 08:49 It certainly kept me busy for sure. And I've got to learn some of the sides of things that I wasn't involved in before. But, um, you know, I know this IPBC so inside and out, um, being, living through all of those ups and downs over the last 10 years that, um, I find that, um, I, you know, I kinda enjoyed it. I knew what would the issues where I know who the players are in the industry. So, um, it was, um, not as difficult as I thought it was going to be, but of course, I need to get back to soma small business solutions and get a CEO hired.

MP: 09:30 Yes.

DM: 09:31 The board is, of course, helping with and we'll have that in place most likely by the end of the month.

MP: 09:36 Oh Wow. Great. Well, I'll be looking forward to hearing about that. Uh, so yeah, it certainly, it's probably been a challenging time managing everything, but it sounds like it's been valuable.

DM: 09:50 Yes, for sure.

MP: 09:55 That's great.

MP: 09:57 So in terms of your, you mentioned the mission statement that you started with, with the IPBC and, and that, what was the missing mission statement that when you were all sitting around the table figuring out what this would be, what was the number one thing you wanted to say to remain throughout all these years?

DM: 10:15 Uh, really about professionalism and education. So providing the support and education to bookkeepers so that they could improve continuously, always have a profession that they were working hard at keeping up with and um, moving forward.

MP: 10:34 Beautiful. And it's why I love it is that you're, you know, you had this vision and this mission that you started out with and you've kept true to that. And, and the results have been remarkable, remarkable growth and really remarkable satisfaction for the people involved, not only the members but as well the different players in the industry. It's a, it's very important, it plays a very important role. And connecting all of your membership with the various resources that are out there in the marketplace.

MP: 11:03 All the stakeholders for sure. Yes. Yes. And for bookkeepers, you know that the CPB to be able to test themselves and be awarded the certified professional bookkeeper designation for IPBC members, there's a great deal of pride in that because of course, you know, the accountants have their designation, but a, we were never, we never had any, so they take a lot of pride in it and those cpps that were now just under 800 in Canada that has actually passed are pretty regular tests really hold that designation to their heart. And they love it and they have a lot of pride in it. And, um, it's something that is growing really, really rapidly.

DM: 11:47 Yeah, I think so. And I think it's important for a business person that's committed to growing business and being successful at it. It provides a level of confidence in that, you know, you've reached this level and you, it's not something that lingers out there that, oh yeah, I don't have that or I need to do it. Once you get it, you're proud that you've done it and you see a whole different landscape if you will, and you'll see the world differently and, and your business differently. And that's that. And you get the economics for more money. That's true. Yes, absolutely.

DM: 12:20 I mean, there are lots of places in the rest of the world that, um, you actually do have to have a license. I'm regulating the bookkeeping industry, but in North America, we don't have that yet. It's one of the mission statements and goals for IPBC to at some point be able to actually, um, get that, um, in Canada here. But until then we've created our own and um, yeah,

MP: 12:45 That's incredible.

DM: 12:46 CPBS in Canada.

MP: 12:48 Yeah. Well listen, you're doing the work on your own. And I think that that's gonna lead to the future. But I am curious how that part of it is, is going, you know, you're, that's like change you're changing laws or I don't even know how one would go about that.

DM: 13:06 We do a lot. Yeah. We do have to do a lot of lobbying with the government and making sure that when anything involving the uh, financial standards in Canada, um, are changing or being discussed that we have a seat at that table. And that's really been our goal all along is to get included. So, you know, recently in Canada we amalgamated where we used to have certified, um, general accountants, so cgas and cmas and now all CPA's, they've all amalgamated into one now, certified professional accountants. So they're always lobbying for that type of thing. And the changes that will happen in the standards like gap and international financial standards. So we want to have a seat at that table to, to be recognized and to make sure that our voices are heard. It's a big uphill battle. I'll be honest with you for sure because, um, it is something that has been controlled by the, um, accountants. But I think that we're a dream team and we can work together. So we need to seat at that table and we need to make sure that to accountants are recognizing IPBC and a certified professional book, your bookkeeper designation in Canada so that we can start to work together with them.

MP: 14:26 Beautiful. Well, you know what, it's, it, all these things take time and you know, it's really for those listening that aren't members of the Institute of professional bookkeepers. That in itself is one reason to do that is that you know, the more people you have belonging to the organization, the more resources that you have to enact change. And that all leads to a better industry for even if you're a part of the IBC or not a certification or licensing and designation leads to a more respected industry, which means that the people will get paid better. Uh, all sorts of amazing benefits that come along with this. Uh, so it's a very important thing that you're doing and you don't have to be involved. You don't have to go sit at that table. You can just go and become a member and let the people that are really passionate about doing this do that work

DM: 15:18 For sure. Numbers in all the, it really gets down to that. We need the numbers.

MP: 15:23 Yeah. And you know, it's coming. And I, I've seen it every year since, I think it'll be my fourth or fifth, can't remember now, uh, being at the conference that we're talking about shortly. But, you know, just seeing the, the growth of members and, you know, they are coming and there's just nobody of, I, I mean, I've worked with hundreds of bookkeepers in Canada alone and there's just nobody that's ever said one thing that has been negative about the IPBC or, you know, it's more, it's not even a car. I can't even say that because it's always a conversation of what value they're getting and how it's valuable. So.

DM: 15:59 Well, thank you. That's great to hear that. That's definitely the goal.

MP: 16:02 Yeah. Which is, which is great. And I, I don't think that that could be said across all the countries out there. Uh, there are other organizations, but certainly in Canada really hitting the, hitting the nail on the proverbial head of the nail or whatever it is. However that saying goes.

DM: 16:18 We have a, we have a fantastic board of 12 members that work really hard and I'm really of the 12, 11 of them are practicing bookkeepers and you know, they, they know what they want, they know what they, where the industry needs to go. They can then provide those services to our members. So, you know, the bookkeepers helping bookkeepers.

MP: 16:40 Yeah. That, and that's it. That's it.

DM: 16:43 So it is created by bookkeepers originally, and it still continues to be driven by bookkeepers.

MP: 16:47 I love it. Uh, uh, for bookkeepers, by bookkeepers. And that's where you find the gold. Right? And so our other listeners, or you know, in North America, there are other associations. You, you just need to go and find the ones that are actually doing the work and providing valuable resources. Um, and so let's talk about the conference a little bit. There's actually a couple of things I wanted to talk about. You know, what you've discovered that your members need. Like where do they need assistance most in their day today? Um, so that people can listen and can sort of relate.

DM: 17:26 Yes, for sure. Well, you know, talk about disruption and a changing industry where, you know, smack Dab in the middle of that with bookkeepers. And along with that, what's happened is we've also kind of come out of the back room and with a lot of pride and a lot of um, knowing that we can help small businesses. You know, before we were kind of back job and nobody really wanted to hear about what we had to say or rarely where we asked our opinion. And that's all changing now along with all of the different software that we have, the apps, all of those tools. But I see the biggest tool right now for bookkeepers being associations like IPBC, all of the social media groups that are literally pocket popping up every single day, forums, educational webinars. Those are the things that bookkeepers need on an everyday basis because the majority of us are sitting in our own little office, not, um, you know, not a lot of interaction other than reaching out to the associations to, you know, social media groups, forums and watching webinars to make sure that we're staying current with all of the different technology that's moving so quickly right now.

DM: 18:45 So those are the things that I feel we need every single day. But keepers are really good at technology. They pick it up quickly. They, you know, they learn it, they love to be able to, um, sit and watch your webinar and the latest new app and then find the customer that that's going to help or work for. And um, yeah, the, those tools are mentorship, collaboration, um, advice, all of the things that bookkeepers need and they need it now and in the future for sure to moving into what I like to call the profit and efficiency strategies that bookkeepers will be doing more and more of in the future.

MP: 19:31 Beautiful. So profit and efficiency strategies. You know, just as we're speaking and I'm hearing you talk about this, it's like I. Dot just got connected for me, which is you know, bookkeepers typically their attention to detail, the good ones they need to have that right. I made, if you don't have attention to detail, the going to have some problems and that's what's needed where we're headed with all this technology and all the different pieces and moving parts for a lot of their customers, listeners, customers, they don't have the attention needed to sort of bring together all these different technologies and you know, what does this piece do with that piece and that very well could be a very big opportunity for this industry is making sense of it all and having the enough attention to those details and making sure that the bigger picture, it all sort of connects and that the technology is actually leading to profit and efficiency because you could waste a lot of, you know, your customers, the business owners could lose a lot of money, time and energy trying to figure and navigate through all of the different technologies out there.

DM: 20:35 When you've got someone on your team that knows how to do all of this and how to make sense of it and make sure that it's done right. That's where profit and efficiency lift for sure.

DM: 20:45 And you know, I'll be so bold to say that I truly believe that in the future we're going to be giving away the actual bookkeeping free.

MP: 20:54 Hmm.

DM: 20:55 It's, you know, you know, the bank feeds that are coming into whatever software you're using, zero QBO, um, sage, you know, the bank feeds come in and the credit card feeds come in and now all we're doing is actually categorizing it that that's going to become the data entry of the past and it's not going to take a whole lot of skills to have that happen. What's going to be the skills is doing that strategy for the, for the customer looking and seeing where is it that they can make more money analyzing the customers, knowing which customers are actually making a profit on in which customers they're not. You know, getting into the hidden details of what the numbers tell them.

MP: 21:39 Yeah, absolutely.

DM: 21:40 And, and doing that analysis that will be the, you know, the bookkeeper of the future. And um, yeah, we'll really, we'll be giving away that actual physical, you know, categorizing and, you know, dragging and dropping, um, bank feeds and credit card fees away for nothing because we can pretty much get that done so quickly. Now the other thing that, you know, bookkeepers will do in the in and they've already done that in the past. I just don't think it's been recognized. I think going forward in the future will become more of that relationship worker. And what I mean by that is, you know, we, we now go in and we saved businesses and along with saving businesses and partnerships, it usually, you know, falls into, we're also saving marriages and if they have a, you know, a small business together, you know, we've always done that in the past. But now with automation in the future, we're going to be given, you know, the bookkeeping service away just to be able to gain those clients to be able to work with them and provide actionable strategies so that they can improve their client's bottom line. That's the bookkeeper I see in the future.

MP: 22:51 Yeah, I agree. And I think it, all of this automation, and while it's for some people it can be, uh, make them nervous or the uncertain, we don't know where the future's going. The reality is that it's taking away work that could be filled better. The time could be filled better with things that you're talking about. Helping a business owner understand what is going on in their business, what are the trends, what are, what's the data and information saying and as well, helping them navigate. I mean, that's the, I always love the fact that you know, so many bookkeepers will work with so many different businesses and what they're seeing. I mean, I, I mean, I'm an Aficionado of bit small business, so I love going into businesses and seeing what they're doing and machinery and all that stuff. And they're going there. I just love it. I always have since it was just little. And so for me, it's like, I think there's getting to see the very intimate details of all these different industries that knowledge is valuable.

DM: 23:46 Oh, for sure. For sure. And um, you know, it's becoming easier and easier to concentrate on those aspects of the business. I mean, when you think about when we used to enter in every single receipt, the amount of time that took us, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of time left to be able to dig into some numbers and see exactly how that's affecting the business and where we can become more efficient. But now with the automation that's, you know, becoming less and less manual work every single day, we have the time to actually affect our client's businesses and then we become so valuable to them.

MP: 24:25 Yeah, it's, it's an exciting future, which, which changes every day it seems. We've got new technology, new great things coming along all the time, which is, it's just great. And that's a great little segue, I believe into talking about the conference coming up.

MP: 24:41 and, and for, you know, these podcasts live forever. So I do always want to say there's a conference going to be a conference every year, so take it if it's already passed and you're listening to this, well, go on the calendar and find when the next one's coming. Uh, cause it's great. You know, five even better conferences.

DM: 24:56 Yeah, it's easy for our conferences. You'll always find them at the end of a, uh, end of September. That's right. So they're held right at the end of September every single year. This year it's from September 27th through to October 1st. Pretty much the 30th, I think is the cutoff. But um, yeah, it's going to be in Richmond Hill and Toronto, Canada this year. We always alternate one in the West and one in the east. So we'll be back in the west next year.

MP: 25:27 Yes. Beautiful.

DM: 25:28 Um, it's bigger and better than, of course, every single year we see, we think, oh, how are we going to top last year? But somehow we do, we've got an amazing staff at IPBC that you know, really does listen to our membership and we're constantly sending out surveys and making sure that we've got the information that uh, we'll give them the very best experience at the conference. We have an educational coordinator now that digs in and does the scheduling and actually books all of the speakers that will be at the conference. Um, so yeah, really, really exciting things. And then, of course, we also now provide the ability for anyone to come to the conference and to write the exam so that they can celebrate and get their CPB right at the conference.

MP: 26:19 No, it's very cool.

DM: 26:20 Last year was the first time we tried it. We weren't sure how it was going to go. We ended up with 50 new CPBS at the end of the conference. So I'm definitely something that our members want to be able to do was to get certified at a conference.

MP: 26:36 Yes. I think it's a great idea. And it's something to set, you know, it's a day to something to set in your calendar, work towards, get it all done, have a great conference in and celebrate on multiple levels. And you know, just for my own perspective, you know, let's say I know that an example Patricia Sawatzky use from Campbell River, she's on the island.

DM: 26:58 Patricia.

MP: 26:58 Yeah, she, she flew, she flies from Campbell River, which for those listening, it's, you know, on the way she flew to Mississauga, Ontario, her first year we were talking a five hour flight. She had to take ferries. It's like the movie trains, planes and automobiles to get her out there. But if you asked Patricia, she would say it was the best thing she ever did for her future of her business. And so if you think about the investment, she had to pay for her ticket to t to the conference, she had to pay for her hotel, she had to pay for all of the flights and travel and all of that good stuff. She was away from her business for a couple of days. It's a huge cost, right?

DM: 27:35 It is.

DM: 27:35 But it is

DM: 27:36 not cheap to fly within Canada.

MP: 27:38 No, you've got that right. Uh, so book your tickets early, folks. But the thing is, is that even if it cost her three, four, $5,000, she will tell you it was worth every single penny. And she goes every single year. She doesn't care where that event is happening. And that's a, a sign of how valuable it is. So for listeners, find out where your association is, where are they having the annual conference and go there? For the Canadians that are listening, you've got to put this on your schedule. Just block it off every single year. What you're going to get out of this is you're going to be surrounding yourself with people who are ambitious and committed to being successful. And that energy, that environment is an environment of success. So if you want to change, if you want growth, if you want to improve and have different outcomes in your, in your life and in your business, this is a perfect opportunity if you're a bookkeeper. Okay? So that's my, that's what I have observed. People fly from all over Canada of uh, uh, we have customers that, licensees of ours, they come from, uh, the Yukon way up in the north, uh, all the way down across the country. I wouldn't be surprised if you had some people flying in from other countries this year to see some of the speakers that you've gone on.

DM: 28:55 Yeah. We will be, yes, we will be. Actually, there are a few people coming in from I think, um, I'm, I'm sure some of your listeners will know Melanie power.

MP: 29:03 Yeah, she was, she was on our podcast recently.

DM: 29:06 Yes. She's going to be coming in and we've got some other people coming in from other countries, but last year we had a representative thereof member in every single province of Canada and the Northwest Territory. So we were super proud of that.

MP: 29:22 Yeah, it's, it's really great. So I, I got up on my soapbox. I really believe in associations and that is a good association. I do want to say that it's like not all associations are created equally. So do due diligence, find out where you know, where the switched on ones are, whatever country you're in and you'll know from just the activity who's involved and go to one of these events and find out.

DM: 29:46 The trade show is completely sold out again. So we've got all of the stakeholders there, all of the people that all bookkeepers need to see and know about their products and all the new apps. So there's lots of education there right in the trade show. And then, of course, we have a huge group of bookkeepers, leaders in the bookkeeping industry that we'll be doing sessions on how to build your bookkeeping business. You guys are always there for us. Yes, I'm getting bigger every year and as of right now, um, we're tracking to be the, uh, beating last year's attendance. So we'll be right every single year we've actually grown and had more members. It's looking that way for this year too.

MP: 30:27 That's great.

DM: 30:35 Well, it's, it's a, it's always been great for us, a great way to connect with, with the community. And you know, we started this, this segue with technology and conversation of technology. And I know that there is going to be a lot of different, uh, uh, speakers talking about where, where the industry's going, the teachings of all the new technology you're going to get, be able to connect with people like Hubdoc, which is very, very popular amongst the community. And, and talk to the people who are really working. And it's different, you know, you're on the phone and you're trying to navigate through this stuff, but when you make that personal connection, it changes things in it and you can become more productive and effective. I remember I think it was Seth Goden who said, you know, people listening to a rock concert versus being at a rock concert are very different. And so, you know,

DM: 31:26 good analogy actually.

MP: 31:27 Yeah, it is. Right? And so, yeah, you know, going and hanging out with all the different people, stakeholders, the sponsors, I, QuickBooks and sage and how companies like Hubdoc and receipt bank and you know, all of them, the WHO's who in the zoo are there and you get to meet the people, shake their hand, uh, and really build a relationship with them that will just only make your life better.

DM: 31:49 Yeah. The context that you're going to be able to use throughout the year.

MP: 31:51 Absolutely. And lifelong friendships as well. Patricia talks a lot about, she's, you know, the people she met, she actually, they now room together at the different conferences and they make it an enjoyable, almost like a vacation, if you will. Um, so it's like edutainment if you will. So

DM: 32:07 Yes.

MP: 32:08 Yeah. So really it's really great. Now I know we're probably pushing over time. We kind of went on a, uh, there, we could probably go for another whole hour. We're talking about all this great stuff, but, um, tell us anything more that you'd like to share and get in the hands or eyes or ears of our listeners.

DM: 32:26 Well for sure. I would like to actually, you know, pass on some tips for bookkeepers listening. And you know, my number one tip is don't stay in the bookkeeper box of the past. Um, unless you're going to retire in the next two years, you really need to step out into the world of collaboration. Other people that are out there, other bookkeepers, other associations, other stakeholders, all of them are there and they're online, they're in social media groups and they can really help you move forward if you're a little bit unsure of how to move in to what we see as the kind of new world of bookkeeping. Um, that's the place to start. You will get an incredible amount of help, um, with any of your questions almost every other day. Another bookkeeping social media, um, access is being created out there so that you can find the right solutions for any reclines questions and also get all of your questions asked.

DM: 33:25 And then the other thing is, is maybe to think about specializing a little bit. You know, technology is moving faster than humans can keep up and it would be important to be very, very good. In fact, the best at whatever it is that you do. So I think it's really too hard to be the best bookkeeper at every software and every app or every industry that's out there. So pick an industry that you really enjoy and then determine what that industry needs in software add ons, apps to make sure that they can run effectively and efficiently and become the expert in that industry and then send everything else that you get to other bookkeepers that are specializing in another particular industry. I think that that's a great way to actually tackle what the future was, is going to be holding because technology is not going to slow down.

DM: 34:20 So it's not like, Oh wow, let's take a, you know, abreast there and, and OSI because we got through the first bit of the disruption that's going to continuously happen now for us going forward. So being able to bite it off in a chunk that you can, um, manage is probably a really good strategy for a lot of bookkeepers right now. And then make sure that you're giving back to your profession, get involved in, you know, make sure that you're proud of everything that's going on and be part of the movement. And also to protect it. Making sure that in the future we do have a seat at that table. So that takes getting involved. You know, we've made amazing headways in the last few years and most of it being by ourselves with a few leaders like Debbie Roberts of pure bookkeeping, for sure. She's been out there as one of the great leaders and forging forward through these disruptions. Melanie powers of the bookkeeping revolution, groups like HBO, um, HQ, you know, Rachel fish or finch, all of those are leaders that are, you know, kind of storming through all of this and showing us the way. So we need to be, you know, on their coattails, making sure we're involved in everything that they are and you know, pushing forward.

MP: 35:41 Beautiful and some great tips. And I can't say enough about, you know, all of them are just pure gold. Uh, if you, if you listened to those and you just sort of focused your, your next couple of months on implementing and thinking about those, it will lead to incredible success inside of your businesses. So it's just been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and I'm sure we'll have you on again in the future.

DM: 36:09 Okay. Thank you very much, Michael. Thank you. Bye for now.

MP: 36:13 That wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's guests and to get all sorts of great, valuable free business building resources, you can go to Until next time,

MP: 36:24 goodbye