EP25: Garry Carter - Bookkeepers Are More Valuable Than They Think

Are you ready?

The time has come for you, the bookkeeper, to realize you're a truly valuable asset to small businesses.

The days of you thinking you're not a core piece are over because, without your expert knowledge and skills, your clients would be in serious financial distress.

According to our guest, Garry Carter, the co-founder of the Institute of Certified Bookkeepers (ICB), bookkeeping isn't a trade, it's a profession.

Many bookkeepers don't think that way.

That's unfortunate because you are a valuable professional.

The more you realize that, the more profit and impact you'll have.

During this interview, you'll learn...

  • Your number one thing that makes your business unique

  • Why your day-to-day client care is crucial to establishing trust and value

  • Why ICB is a powerful organization to support bookkeepers

To learn more about Garry, visit here.

For information on ICB, click this link.

To explore ICB USA, check it out here.


Michael Palmer: 01:19 Welcome to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer. And today I am joined with a very special guest who is speaking with us all the way from the United Kingdom. He is the co-founder of the Institute of Certified Bookkeepers, which is become the largest bookkeeping institute in the world. He's also the chief executive of the ICB and its unbreathable organization. I see be global. Gary Carter. Welcome to the podcast. 

Garry Carter: 01:47 Great. Hello. I'm really excited to be here. Very nice to speak to you. 

MP: 01:51 Yeah, it's a, our opportunity to have someone like yourself on the podcast and I know you've been inspiring, educating and powering bookkeepers all over the planet, so this is going to be awesome. 

GC: 02:05 Yeah, I'm fine. The bookkeeper's right across the planet have virtually the same sort of people. They have the same passion, the same vision, the same needs, and they're great people, good people to work with. 

MP: 02:18 Absolutely. We, we loved them and we actually think they're the backbone of small business around the world. So it makes our economy great and thrive, which helps feed families and create jobs. And, uh, it's always been a good time, but it's a great time to be a bookkeeper and doing the search work with all that's changing in the industry. But before we get into all of the knowledge that you have, can you first off share a little bit of your background and how you came to be the, the cofounder of the Institute of Certified bookkeepers?

GC: 02:54 Yeah, it's, well one originally was that I was a businessman. My wife and I ran small businesses, publishing businesses mainly and we always had great difficulty understanding our figures because neither of us has a financial background. Um, I'm what some people call laughingly an entrepreneur that basically I get strange ideas in the middle of the night and then go off and do them. And the role of the finance was something that happened along the way, not necessarily with any sort of planning. And as my business has started to grow and I realized occasionally running short of cash and uh, occasionally needing to grow and find more cash or a lot, borrow some money or something. I find it very difficult to know who to turn to for this advice. Uh, I tried to, banks obviously tried various firms of accountants and for most of the firms of accountants, we were probably too small to worry about at that stage. 

GC: 03:47 So all they wanted to do really was do our year-end stuff. But I wanted somebody that was gonna work with me on a daily, weekly basis. And, uh, my wife likes a lot of small businesses. She used to do that, but, uh, she couldn't help me run the business and do the books at the same time. It was very much a shared business. So we employed a bookkeeper, didn't know how to employ a bookkeeper. Somebody came in and basically, she knew how to spell it and uh, she told us she knew what she was doing and she made a complete mess of our books to the stage where we are quite a bit of money to attacks, man. We had to get that sorted out. A, at which point she sort of disappeared, never to be seen again. But meanwhile, my wife and I were so under the cost of attachment, so we thought this is just not right. 

GC: 04:35 We need to be able to find good bookkeepers as a small business person. And I spoke to a lot of small business organizations and we did prompt by this, we did a big survey about 5,000 small businesses. This is way back in 1995 I think it was. And the biggest problem that small businesses had was actually running their business. They knew how to make whatever it was they were making. They knew how to sell whatever it was they wanted to sell, but actually running a business, most of them have never done it before. I mean, I, I came from a corporate background where I had secretaries and administrators and office people helping me. I didn't really know what they did. They did a good job. But all of a sudden I was, I was doing the lot and it didn't work for me. So w we looked around to see what was available. And bookkeepers seem to be the obvious people to turn to, but how do you tell who's good, but people, they're all going to come to you and say they're the best thing that you know, since sliced bread as we say here in the UK. But how do you judge? So it was really with that in mind, and that's a sort of an oversimplification, but we set about with a group of [inaudible] use a business, people setting up the ICB to provide a standard, which reflected what a bookkeeper really needed to do. We see 

GC: 05:58 education, but to see the businesses that they were serving. And from that, we set up ICB. And once we started the ball rolling, we realized everybody felt the same. And we were very fortunate that as soon as we put our head above the powerboat, everybody said, wow, this is great. Why haven't you been here before? Great. We'll have one of your bookkeepers. And so that's it. Basically, that's where we came from.

MP: 06:15 Wow. And how long now have you been operating, uh, around the world?  

GC: 06:29 Well, the company has existed for 20 years. Our first foray outside the United Kingdom was 10 years ago when we moved to Australia. And since then we've expanded. We're now in 132 countries now. That sounds fantastic, to be honest. In some of those countries, in fact, in a lot of those countries, we've got one or two members that have found us on the web. But we do now have nine offices and we have agents in a lot of those countries. So it's growing on a daily basis, thankfully. But as I said, when we first started, whichever country you go to, everybody has a good story to tell you about a bookkeeper or a bad story and they all want bookkeepers to be part of that business is very important. 

MP: 07:14 Absolutely, absolutely. Well, that's remarkable and remarkable growth in terms of being in all of those countries and doing this work. Now you worked with thousands of bookkeepers around the world and of the successful ones, what do you see that they have in common? 

GC: 07:36 I hope you don't mind me saying this and they almost get some sort of weird pleasure from seeing a set of books work. They just love books. They love accounts and they seem to look at it in a different way to how an accountant looks at it. We have a friend of ours who actually is also a member. It is one of our trainers. He writes books and he says that the accountants and bookkeepers use different sides of the brain and accountants are very much from the creative side of the brain whereas bookkeepers use the mobile thoughtful side of the brain that makes them sound a little bit boring. But you give the bookkeeper a set of books and they will try and find where every single dollar cents has gone. A center's gone and you know it. Sometimes the vuln almost, you know, they, they get very excited about this. 

GC: 08:30 And I was crossing the Philippines recently where we have a very large organization and I was surrounded by the sea of Filipino bookkeepers and they have competitions with each other, uh, to, to figure out who could do the best set of books. And it's amazing what they all want to do. And in the UK here we have a lot of bookings that we have about 60 different meetup groups around our country. Not a very big country, but that 60 meetup groups. And I'd go and talk to them a lot of time, a lot of all the time and meet up with them. And it doesn't matter where you go, where you are, it's almost as if you're talking to exactly the same group. They get very excited when they tell you about their latest client that's just walk through the door with a set of books and a mess and how have they sorted that mess out? And they'd put them back onto a piece of software or a, you know, onto whatever it is they're doing. And, um, they just get some enjoyment out of it, which I think is great. They love their job. 

MP: 09:43 That's beautiful. And it's a really interesting analysis of really around the different mindsets between the accountants and the bookkeepers. And I've never thought of it that way, but I certainly have noticed working with bookkeepers as well, from different parts of the world. They're very much the same, very much have similar challenges, very much have that similar way of thinking. And Sir, it's, it's actually funny cause I'm not that type. So when I put, if I send an email or if there's a document or anything like that, it's like I better have that the, you know, the I's dotted and the cs cross cause they're going to notice. It's amazing. Yeah. And we need that. We need that type of skillset in business because as entrepreneurs, their customer is often not like that at all. 

GC: 10:29 Yeah. I mean the analogy I've used ever since day one really is of the doctor and the nurse, you know, the doctor is the accountant. Uh, they go in, they do a very important job. They decide what's wrong, they need, they tell you what's gonna be cut out or what's got to be repaired or something or other. But the nurses, the person who gives the day to day customer care, they look after the patient. And really that's what a bookkeeper does. You know, most of our bookkeepers work with firms of Accountants, CPAs, chartered accountants or whatever. And it's not an either-or. For most businesses, they need different skills. But you know, again, going back to the analogy of the doctor and the nurse, if somebody comes out of the hospital and they say, well how was it? They always say, oh, the nurses were wonderful. And that's what businesses said about their bookkeepers. 

GC: 11:17 Because I think the way compliance accounting works, it's very much a year-end focus and then looking forward to the next five, 10 years and planning. But there's so much more to running a business that is the day in our, at the weekend, whatever it might be. You know, the cash walking in the cash flow is a constant concern for a lot of small businesses. Knowing where the next new customers coming from, how to keep their current customers happy and everything else. You know, it's, it's, it's a constant. And I think also if you look at most micro and small businesses, the normally the entire family is involved, you know, it's not just husband or wife, it goes off to work and comes home and says, you know, hello dear, I'm home. It doesn't happen like that. And I know from running my own small businesses with, with two grown children, you know, our Sunday lunch tables, we're a constant board meeting almost, you know, and that's how small businesses run and you need somebody on your side batting at your wicked to understand your business, get under the skin of what you're doing. And that's a good bookkeeper. 

MP: 12:28 Absolutely right. And I love that it's a, a person. How did, what was his standing at your wicked? I guess that would be the person, uh, in cricket, uh, managing the, managing the overall, uh, intricacies of the game. It's a great, great analogy. And I actually watched a video of yours online and I really liked what you were saying around, uh, the difference between accountants and bookkeepers and that that Sim, it wasn't the nurse analogy, but it was a similar message in that bookkeepers are such an important piece of the business owners business. Now how can you have more bookkeepers? Because there are a lot of bookkeepers who actually don't think like that. They think it's just a job, you know, do the books, whatever, and they're not that important, you know? And, and even the marketplace in some way doesn't look at it that way. What's your advice for bookkeepers to lift up that, that perception and lift up their own per value perception in the market? 

GC: 13:27 It's not an easy message to get across. I have to say bookkeepers for many years have been pushed into the background because of the prevalence of accountants and big accounting firms, et cetera. And you know, as an outsider, it looks almost as if accountants are the only people that can get involved. But once you get to know about bookkeepers and what they do, and that's different. And each year at our conferences right there around the world, but we have, we have a big conference with about 12 1300 bookkeepers in the UK every year in London. And I say to them, look, look at your business. What is the one thing that your business has that no other business has? And they look at you with a blank look and I say it's you. You are what makes your business unique. And you have to realize just how important you are to these businesses. 

GC: 14:19 And then I talk about some of the things that I've just spoken to you about. You know you'll get the impression I'm very passionate about this. It's just that it's a complete reliance upon me. The diligence, the effort, the trust of a bookkeeper. And you know, if an accountant makes an error, it can be sorted, et cetera. Bookkeeper's different, you know, they've really got to get things right every single time they do something. It's not numb, it's not a percentage game if you've got to do it all the time. And I, and I think that's important, so I just say to appreciate what it is that you're doing for small businesses. Look at the work you're taking off the shoulders of that guy and letting that, that man or that woman go out and just have no concerns about their books. They can just go straight out and I can sell that product harder. They can make more money to bring into the business so that you can look after it and make it look after their family. They could look after their whole future.

GC: 15:27 It's not always a popular theory, but the problem I think has historically been that a lot of bookkeepers are women and they have been undervalued in the workplace for many, many years. And I like to think that it be, we, we've, we've changed all that 74% of our members build us, and we built them up to feel really important. But each year we run the National Sorority, global, uh, bookkeeping. Can we get everybody right away around the world celebrating bookkeeping? And we have a special morning, the Wednesday, they're in the middle of that, that we, which raises a cup of Dan, and we get everybody to raise a cup of coffee to bookkeepers and bookkeeping. And it's difficult to see, to know exactly how many people are getting involved, but it's certainly in the hundreds of thousands. But something that came home to me here in the UK, I had a lady came into our offices because we have a coffee morning in our offices and we all raised a couple of mid-day and said, you know, cheers to bookkeepers and bookkeeping. 

GC: 16:36 And this lady sat next to me and she said, uh, my family comes from India. I'm the fourth generation bookkeeper in my family, but I'm the first generation that has been allowed to admit that I'm a bookkeeper. And what she explained was that her mother, grandmother and great grandmother have all been bookkeepers, but they've looked after the books for the businesses that were run by her grandfather and her uncles. And various other things. And in the evening the men used to hide the books in bags, take them home so that the women could do the books. Then in the morning, get them back into the business before anybody realized that the books had been taken out. And that was for two reasons. Firstly, they didn't want people to know that their wives had done the books because it would bring shame to their family. Can you imagine that Tom Believer warm because a woman should not have a career and a man would allow his business to be run by a woman? And I, I sat there and I said, seriously? And she said, yeah. And in some countries around the world and it's still the case. Yeah, it can. No, I can imagine. So that was an amazing story. 

GC: 18:07 Daddy's no longer the case. I mean, I think people can be bookkeepers and they can hold their heads up and you know, they're making good careers, very, very successful businesses. And what used to be a cottage industry with, you know, a man or a woman working by themselves, looking after two of three 23 whatever clients. We now have members right away around the world who've got quite growing businesses. We're 2030 even 40 bookkeepers, all as part of a, of a High Street office servicing all sorts of companies. And it's fantastic to see it. I'm really pleased. I like to think that, you know, [inaudible] has done its, its fair share of making that happen. 

MP: 18:49 Absolutely. You know, through education and empowering people to do that. They take risks they may not have taken. And I think that's the power of, of any association in any industry. If you have a good association, it's a place where you go and you really own yourself, your industry, and, and that's what builds momentum. So I'm sure the annual conferences and things you do throughout the year contribute to that. And we were big supporters of associations. In fact, the listeners, if you're listening right now, you need to look for an association. And I know we're going to get into an apricot, some questions about, uh, in particular, ICB North America. Cause that's a, a very, probably a very growing, uh, association for the United States. We have a lot of listeners from the United States, but uh, it's really great to hear and certainly amazing when you hear that story of that woman that this is the first generation that they're able to admit that they are the bookkeeper. 

MP: 19:46 And I'm sure you're having a big impact on countries that aren't as, as much a develops as some of the first world countries like the UK and Canada and the United States, Australia, but India and the Philippines. And it's certainly needed. Now from your opinion, there's this conversation of trusted advisors in North America. That's a bit, you know, it's almost a slogan, but I, I'm wondering what your take is on how you see bookkeepers becoming that trusted advisor. And we talked a little bit about it versus that, you know, just the data entry or document collection specialist.

GC: 20:28 I think technology and particularly artificial intelligence will continually take away a lot of the, what I call mundane work of, of any professional, but particularly bookkeepers and accountants. It will make life easier. It will make it look better, it'll make it faster to do, but then that relieves our bookkeepers of all the time they've spent doing that and the stuff that took a lot of time in which to try and really never understood why it took so long. And it gives them a challenge therefore to take the figures that are being prepared and instead of just presenting the figures, analyzing the figures, because it's all very well giving a client a set of books and saying, hey we are, this is how well you've done. That's just a very early step in the process as far as I'm concerned because what they then want to know is, okay, but what do they mean? 

GC: 21:24 And most small businesses are run by people who don't know what a set of accounts means. You know, there's an old guy, a new chair that if you've got money in the bank and that equals profit. And if you haven't got a bracket around it, everything must be okay. So we know that that isn't the case. And therefore I think the bookkeeper can step up to the plate to use another analogy, but an American one, hopefully, to say, this is your business as it is now, what exactly is it you want to do? Have you thought of, you know, expanding? Are you going to stay where you are? Are you going to sell up? Are you going to leave it for your kids? And they can start the thought process that may eventually be taken over by a firm of accountants or other advisors. But it's got to be an ongoing process. 

GC: 22:10 So our bookkeepers already have a very close relationship with those clients. So they've already got a trust. They know each other, they know each other well. And to be honest, when a bookkeeper's done your books for a couple of years, they know every in and out of your business. They know, they know your clients, they know who you're paying, who pays you. So they've got that business, they know what it's about. So it's the next logical step to say, okay, now I can talk to you about what you could be doing better or what you should be doing differently. Or do you realize you could save 10% here if you did that differently? And I, I just think it's so much a logical step now to become trusted advisors and in fact in a lot of people doing, talking at the moment about becoming a trusted advisor, et Cetera, and making a lot of money standing up in front of rooms and people telling them how to do this, et cetera. But I really think bookkeepers have probably been doing this for many, many years. It's just the, perhaps it's a little more formalized now. I don't know what you think, but who better to do this? 

MP: 23:20 Well, I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's that behavioral characteristic of the bookkeeper that you mentioned earlier, right? They love to find the problems, fix it, and they, and they actually like to tell you about it too. And so it would have been natural that bookkeepers would have been trying even to, to communicate with owners. How about the things that they finding, but I think in the past perhaps in the communication would have been a breakdown because entrepreneurs don't necessarily want to hear all of the intricate details of those problems. So what I think is shifting is that there's a lot of education, a lot of conversation around speaking in a language that an entrepreneur or business owner that's happened maybe a little bit of a different character from the mindset perspective and, and have your communication land and so you're absolutely right. They have been advisors, the ones, the owners that really got that, they are the ones that probably flourished. 

MP: 24:21 It's like they have this person that's got their back, that's I, you know, stepped up the plate and as I wait, wait for a second, this person is trying to help me be more successful. So it, and there is a big, is a big conversation and it's one that I think is a great conversation, but certainly, they're the ones that have been doing it. And with a few tweaks, I think we'll, it'll only continue and solidify their place in the industry and in business as being essential to your business and that's where we're, what I get really excited about and like yourself being able to contribute to that in some way through those podcasts is to have them be the a, I think we use them, the guardians of their profit, the guardians of their financial books and to really own that so that they can set the owner free to do the great things that they were meant to do in their business. 

GC: 25:11 Yeah, I mean I take the things you've got to realize that most entrepreneurs do not want to be told that business isn't doing very well or they're doing seniors differently. It's like telling them their kids are ugly. That's right. But if you've got a relationship already with that client and providing that relationship as a good relationship, you can open up avenues of discussion which are not open to other people who drive up into the office and sit opposite the desk and have a chat with somebody on a one-off basis. You've got a hands-on approach, you're part of the team, you're part of the family. In many cases, you know that that's what it's about. Now, I'm not suggesting that all bookkeepers are ready to take this on without some sort of help. A lot of bookkeepers still today I suppose we'll say. Well, that's not really my place to say that. 

GC: 26:03 Well, what we're saying is, but yes it is. You know, it is definitely your place to say this because you're the only one who can say this. You're the only one that has a complete understanding of that person's business. And part of what ICB has always done is, first of all, we, we have entry by examination only. So you don't get in unless you do some form of examination, whether it's uh, uh, studying from day one with no understanding of bookkeeping and you sit as a whole range of exams or you come in and you say, right, I've been a bookkeeper for 20 years. We say great roofing, take an exam, you know, take a test. So we know that everybody reaches out the standard and our standard is pretty high. We have a very high pass mark requirement and you know, that's the start. Then we have a code of ethics and the code of ethics is also pretty restrictive. 

GC: 26:58 We want to make sure, for example, they don't go beyond their understanding or their qualification. They can't venture into areas where they have got no expertise because that would be bad for their clients. That would be bad for them. It would be bad for our institute's reputation. They need to be of high morals and very ethical in everything they do. You know this, this is a very trusted position and Lawanna. One of the things that we as, as ICB has been saying for the last 20 years is bookkeeping is not a trade. This is a profession. This is the same as being a chartered accountant or a lawyer or anything else because of the trust that's placed in you, the knowledge that you have to have and the ability you have to 

GC: 27:44 make your business successful or completely ruin it. If you get things wrong, you have to be professional.

MP: 27: 50 Beautiful. It's fantastic.

MP: 27:58 Yeah. and that's a great segue into talking about your, I think, what's relatively news ICB North America. What, when did, when did you launch in the United States? 

GC: 28:09 Uh, we launched about 18 months ago, very much a soft launch. Uh, we were very lucky right from day wall to have John Hager with us. Um, we went across to the states because although we were over here in England, a lot of people, well contacting those are having trainers on the web and saying, look, we want something like this in the u s that there are alternatives. We are with a Bouchet that in the US already. But we like what you're saying, we like your upfront message about bookkeeping business standards and becoming part of a community. And they wanted to join our organization. And we said, okay, that's fine, but really we ought to do something in America so that you become part of an American group of, of ICD bookkeepers. And, and that's what we did. So when we came across, first of all, and uh, we told America talking to various colleges and companies, meetup groups kept coming up over and over again. 

GC: 29:11 So we spoke to Jan and said, yeah, this is the woman for us. So she has been taken on to too head up our push into the US it's very early days yet, you know, we have a thousand or so members, which is minuscule, but it's growing nicely. Uh, we'd rather take a thousand good people than 10,000 not so good people. So you know, we're a bit restrictive on what we do, but we've been really, really well supported by all of the software companies. They have a different reason for existing. Of course, they just want to sell less software. But actually what we're finding right away around the world is that what they're saying is, well look, we'd like some sort of independent verification of us as a software product and as a software vendor and therefore we'd like some of our users, the better ones to get into membership with you. 

GC: 30:08 So, you know, they've been very helpful. And I, I mean, I love America, my family and I holiday there are a lot, we've got family, limps over in America and you're just so positive. You know, we, we Brits talk about the weather all the time and the weather is never particularly good or over there peer. So, you know, it's usually a wet day or something rather. Um, you come to America and there's always a candle attitude and you just feel it running through your veins. When you, when you're in America and you're talking to business people, they are so excited about what they've got. They want to tell you about their business. And, and this is what I find with the bookkeepers. You know, they, they, they were so pleased, ease that they were looking after American businesses and they were, you know, making America what it is they were there. And as you said earlier, the backbone of the American economy and a, it's really exciting stuff. Uh, as I say, small at the moment we're growing, but, um, you know, we, we've got very, very big plans for America. 

MP: 31:13 I bet. And I, I can see you doing very well down, down in America. You know, the economy seems to be getting better just in terms of what is there. It's a very large country, lots of different people, lots of different thought processes. And I think to bring it together in a, in a, an organization such as yours will be fantastic. And we'll certainly you say her name again, that's heading it up.

GC: 31:37 It's Dan Waco. Hello. How 

MP: 31:39 Jen? Yeah. So what, we'd love to have her on the, on the podcast as well at some 0.02 what she's doing down there and tell us a little bit about what's the best way for our listeners to get more information. Um, go ahead and share that. If you've got any kind of promotions on or anything like that, we'd love to hear about it and the listeners can take action from there. 

GC: 32:02 Yeah, ICB USA is the website. It'll give you all of the information. Jan is spending a lot of her time adapting a lot of the stuff that we've got right the way around the world and turning it into American. But the point about our organization is we have a very strong local focus. The Global is just the umbrella over the top. And what we want in each of the countries we're in it for the local bookkeepers to feel comfortable that we are dealing with their local needs. And, and not saying, you know, we're not a British organization that's coming in here and saying, hey you, you can do whatever. Like as long as it's British, 

GC: 32:40 that's not what we do. We're saying, right, let's get the American people together, let them run their own organization, make it part of a global group so that, you know, we can talk to our members. We've got members up in Canada, we've got members in Brazil, Mexico, goodness knows that. But then also in the UK, I mean we are big trading partners with the US of course. So if you're in the US and you're a member of ACB, you can talk to your fellow ICB members in ICB UK. And it's just this feeling of being part of something big and global and realizing that you're not the only person that thinks this way and works this way. But you have to imagine there is that England is by the side of Florida. So you know you are a big country.

MP: 33:20 Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what I, I would say that the fact that you operate in so many countries, so many offices around the world, what you are experts in is providing an environment for the collaboration of people. 

MP: 33:42 And so that's what I think is exciting for the community here in North America is bringing that, that expertise and not to say that yeah, if you, the way that bookkeeping is done in the UK and the United States and what people need here versus over there is very different. But I like the model that you've set up and it's, it's exciting and we're so excited to have you on the show. I'm sure it's going to be very informative because you know, getting the word out there is what the stage you're at now is really getting the word out to the bookkeepers. And a lot of them is listening.

GC: 34:10 Yeah. I mean, we were talking off-air before that you've now got a 22-month-old child though of the way in ICB USA. And I think you were saying that your child was going through a slightly difficult period at the moment. 

GC: 34:30 Well, we know we're going to have, um, those as well with ICB and it's not going to be all systems go, go, go wise. But the feedback that we're getting from everybody at the moment is just, wow, this is good. This is what we want. We want to be involved, we want to help. How do we get involved? You know, what is it that I can do for you to help ICD going on in this country? And you know, we're, we're welcoming them with open arms because I mean, when we started 20 years ago in the UK, uh, yeah, bookkeeping hadn't been a particularly well-recognized profession for about 30 years. And as a few people said, well, our bookkeepers, accountants, you know, and then we went through this whole educational thing and we starting to move it forward. But the first year, I think we registered the band 300 or so in the first year, but by the end of year five we were up to 10,000 so you know, it can happen and that's what we're talking about. 

GC: 35:37 Everybody's happy to reach out the standard and sing from the same hymn sheet, then I think we're on a winner. And um, I'd love to think that America could potentially be one of our biggest operations because, uh, you know, you're a big country, but um, you're a big-hearted country. You know, you're very keen on trade and commerce and that's, that's, that's just exactly what we're about.

MP: 35:50 Beautiful. Well, Gary, it has been an incredible pleasure. We hope to have you back and, and other members of your team back on the show at some point, but thank you very much for being on the show.

GC: 36:05 My pleasure and thank you very much for inviting me. So I hope to speak to you when, when we reach our 10,000 members in America.

MP: 36:20 Absolutely. When we'll do our best to help you get there.

GC: 36:30 Great. Thank you.

MP: 36: 35 Awesome Jeff. But that wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and what a great episode it was to learn more about today's guests and they get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources. You can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time, goodbye.