All of us do it.
But, we can choose not to let it block us from success.
Yes, you can break free from it.
Our returning guest, Lisa Campbell, who is the owner of The Marcam Group, has done it.
She focused on the main problem, took action and transitioned into a very successful advisor to bookkeepers.
In fact, she shares her insight in the 7 Steps To Scale Your Bookkeeping Business Masterclass.
Her positive mindset and willingness to take action has changed her business forever.
Nowadays, she has a reduced workload, mentors bookkeepers, takes courses and training to improve herself which is adding more value to her bookkeeping business.
During this interview, you'll discover...
The importance of surrounding yourself with like-minded people
The 7 steps to scale your bookkeeping business
How to keep yourself organized
To learn more about Lisa, visit here.
To watch her 7 Steps To Scale Your Bookkeeping Business Masterclass webinar recording, check this out.
To listen to her previous Successful Bookkeeper appearance, click here.
Michael Palmer: 01:11 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I'm your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a fantastic one. Our return guest is a pure bookkeeping North America licensee and has 25 years experience in the bookkeeping industry. She is the owner of the Mark Ham group, a bookkeeper, a mentor, and the creator of the seven steps to scale your bookkeeping business masterclass. As always, it's fun to chat with her again, Lisa Campbell, welcome back to the show.
Lisa Campbell: 01:41 Hey Michael, thanks for having me. It's always fun to be here.
MP: 01:44 I love having you on the show, but I just love having chats with you. I learned something new every time. I get inspired every time and I'm excited to inspire our listener today. And so Lisa met probably many of, uh, of our listeners have not actually met you or heard the episode of when you were on, I think it was about a year ago. So I'd love for you to share your journey leading up to this point. Uh, and, and what's that been like getting you here?
LC: 02:16 Well, it's been a long journey and I've learned a lot along the way with your help as well. Thank you very much for that. And a, you know, I started off like everybody else. I was a bookkeeper and I got busier and busier and uh, I was getting into trouble with getting things, you know, out of control and, and I also had a need, I was in a bad marriage that I needed to get out of and I needed to make more money. So I had to learn how to grow my business to a point where it made enough money for me. And so I learned how to do lots of things along the way and that just kind of, you know, grew and grew to something that I never even expected years ago.
MP: 02:53 Hmm. It's, uh, your, your story is an inspiring one and you went through challenging times. What's, what's inspiring those that you did something about it?
LC: 03:05 I did. Well, I had to because I knew that, you know, if I didn't do something, it was just gonna stay the same. I was going to always be busy and always working evenings and weekends and not being able to getaway. And so, you know, I, I had to crack the whip a little bit and put the time in and I'm glad I did because you know, having gone through the other side and coming out of putting all that work in, I never would have imagined that my life would be where it is right now.
MP: 03:29 Mm. Well, well let's talk about what your life was like when you were just running your bookkeeping business before we even met. What was life like?
LC: 03:40 Oh, it was so stressful. It was, I mean, it was just me at that point and you know, like I said, I had, you know, lots and lots of clients, not necessarily high-value clients, but you know enough and you know, the work was always there and it was always overwhelming and, and I was having trouble keeping up and keeping myself organized. And that's when I reached out to you in the beginning and I thought, you know, how am I going to get organized with this? So I learned how to, to systematize, which really helped a lot, but it was insane. I was constantly worrying about meeting deadlines, worried that things were going to fall through the cracks. And so, you know, I got a handle on it and it was uh, yeah, it was time spent working on the business outside of working already, you know, in the business. So it was doubled up there for a little while. But the transformation, the way it happens, it's absolutely incredible. Little by little, just taking those baby steps every day, the way it changes, you start to free up and you start to realize, you know what, there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I can do this.
MP: 04:35 Mm. And so you, you took the action. I remember that call. I remember having a call with you and, uh, you know, knew that you were someone that was going to take, take this and run with it. What w what was that journey like you, you made that decision. It probably wasn't an easy decision because you, you know, you had to invest in your business, not only from a financial standpoint but also a time standpoint.
LC: 05:02 Yeah. It, I mean it was, it was difficult. Um, I think probably the biggest issue I had was a, this was actually somebody asked me this the other day, the biggest issue I had was not really having a sense of direction, you know, which items to tackle first. So obviously for me the biggest part was getting the systems in place because once I got my systems in place, that enabled me to, to delegate and do other things. So not having, you know, a clear defined sort of roadmap on how to get from a to B was a bit of a problem. And so I look now looking backwards, I can go, okay, I did this then I did that, I should have done this first. So I think that overall, you know, working, working with you, working with the systems, going through that whole program was just like invaluable to me.
MP: 05:48 Mm. And you, you, it wasn't just systems though. You actually, you took it beyond that and actually you've got your journey's interesting because it was you as a solo bookkeeper, you, you knew you needed systems, you became more efficient, but then you also started adding staff to your business.
LC: 06:07 Yup. Yup. Well, I found I had more free time and so yeah, originally I had started just to sort of get a handle on my own practice and it just really gradually turned into a business. And so once you do that and you have a team in place, it's doing the day to day work, you end up with this abundance of time and you think, okay, what am I going to do with this? So I myself set out to learn the higher skills, which of course increased my value, which is why I'm able to sort of be on this journey that I never even expected. I just thought I was going to get a handle on my own stuff. And it was amazing the doors that opened up and the value that I can provide to my clients now. But had I not had this, the systems and processes in place first, I really don't think that I would have such a good handle on it. In fact, I do talk with a lot of bookkeepers and accountants and some other organizations that I belong to who are offering higher value skills, but they're also still doing the day to day work. I mean I can't even imagine having to do both.
MP: 07:04 Hmm. It would be difficult.
LC: 07:06 Oh, it would be like the goal is to free up time to offer the higher value it. You're still doing both. You're just adding more work.
MP: 07:14 Mm. And you know, there many listeners are listening and often when you hear people that have put in the long work and the, and the blood sweat tears to get to that endpoint, it can almost sound like while it's easy for you cause you've, you've already done it. Right. Um, the overnight success, right. That the, the 10-year overnight success. W W what's your recommendation or advice to people that might be thinking, Hey, uh, I know, I know I need to do something different, but you're not sure exactly what to do.
LC: 07:49 Well, you need to take a step. First of all, you need to, you need to get some clarity on, you know, where you want to go. And if you think that it's going to happen all by itself or you know, somebody is going to throw this readymade business onto your lap, it's not going to happen. But taking those steps, very small steps as you go, it frees you up and it gives you more opportunity. So I think the people that are stressed right now, thinking, you know, I'm already too busy and I, you know, I don't have time to do this and I can't babysit people and there's no way I can do this in my business because of course, I'm the only one that knows how to do it. Get that out of your head. Because you know what, there's lots of bookkeeping businesses out there and there's lots of successful ones. And there's lots of successful advisors out there and you can't transition to that other role until you get a handle on it. So you've got to put the work in and it's not hard. It's, it's not hard work. It's time-consuming, but it's not overly time-consuming. If I can do it, you can do it.
MP: 08:49 Beautiful. Yeah. And so you, you created a program, now you've, you've, and maybe we are jumping ahead too quickly cause you, you actually, let's talk a little bit about getting through your own scale. Right? You, it was just you then you added staff. Uh, what was the adding staff journey like?
LC: 09:09 Well actually, once I had the systems in place, it wasn't too bad. So having the systems in place, what that means is that every step that I take every day with every client is documented. It's set on repeatable processes so that I know if I'm going to do a, B or c for a client, I'm basically documenting every step that I take in that job for that client. So for me to document that and then have it on my, you know, cloud-based workflow that allows me to now add that to somebody else's workflow, knowing that they're doing it exactly the same way I'm doing it. So adding people in, it's a very slow process where you, you delegate one job at a time where maybe a few tasks at a time and you're still overseeing the rest of it, but essentially you're, you're very gradually handing off basically what you're doing. And I, you know, I basically teach people that you're, you're making a clone of yourself because we've all said it. I wish there were two or three of me so that I can get all this work done. Well, you can create that, but you have to put the work into doing that.
MP: 10:05 Hmm. And I would imagine it's different type of work too, because people listening might think, gee, that sounds like a lot work.
LC: 10:12 Well, it's, I think if you're trying to figure it out on your own, then yeah, it's probably a lot of work. I mean you get, you get sidetracked a little bit. But if, if you could sit down with somebody and they say, okay, do this, this and this, and you're going to get to that. I mean, why not? I would.
MP: 10:27 Absolutely. Absolutely. So you bringing on staff, it went a lot more smoothly because you had the foundation of systems and process, uh, cloud, cloud software to enable you to be able to delegate and keep track of things. And then you also added to your own repertoire the, the ability to add value-added services into your business. And so now you're actually mentoring other bookkeepers and accountants and growing their and scaling their business. Let's talk a little bit about that and, and, and share with us the, the, the seven steps to scale your bookkeeping business.
LC: 11:08 Okay? So what I've learned is that does a series of steps that you need to go through. You should follow them in a certain order, okay? Because what you want to do first is you want to identify yourself as is, is this the right path for you? Are you, are you supposed to be a technician? For the rest of your life or do you want to develop yourself into something that's, you know, a little bit more of a higher purpose where you're earning those higher dollars as well. So we need to look at, you know, do you have the experience to back it up? Do you, you know, have you gone through the pains of what a regular bookkeeper would go through before you bring on other people? Because if you're not a technician yourself, you're not going to understand that. So be the technician first.
LC: 11:43 Then learn how to remove yourself from that position. So what you want to do first is you want to introduce the systems and processes, which is like I just said, you want to document literally everything you do. You want to make sure you test it and prove it so that nothing gets missed and you don't miss any deadlines. Once you have that in place, and then you can start to look at your, your overall process is you want to look at things like your fee structure. So many people are caught up on charging by the hour. So we need to get people away from that because that's not a value-based model at all and you're not really being rewarded for the work that you know. So that's, that's one of the things that I tend to look at. And then what we also want to do is we want to put all their processes that they've created to clone themselves.
LC: 12:26 We want to put that in an automated workflow so that you can access it and literally have it like almost like a, an operations manager right in front of you so that you can check in from anywhere that you are a and see what's going on within, you know, the processes in your business. Well, the, what's going on with your clients. Once you have that in place, you can start to hire and when you hire people, you don't necessarily have to hire from great skill. You can train great skill because you've literally given them a step by step manual that's on their speed. They log in, they go, okay, I need to do this for this client. Okay, I need to do a, B, and C. And they check it off and it comes back to you and you can see it. So it's not as hard as saying, okay, I need to hire a bookkeeper or three bookkeepers and I need to put them all in a room and I need to sit there and explain to them step by step what I do know.
LC: 13:10 You're going to walk them through it on your cloud-based workflow. So once you've done that, and you can now delegate your task one by one, until you're literally handing off every aspect of your clients to your team. Once you do that, you're going to have very little workload yourself and you're going to be spending about 50 to 80% of your time in the design phase of your business. So now you're trying to improve your business. So what can you do? Well, you can go and take courses to improve yourself, which is what I did. So I differentiated myself from the average bookkeeping firm. We don't just do your books for compliance, we do your books in a way that helps you grow as a business.
MP: 13:46 Hmm, love that.
LC: 13:47 I was a little long-winded there. Sorry.
MP: 13:50 No, it's good. It's fantastic. I mean, you know, you can see the progression and now how do you help others get there? What, what gets in their way? Why would someone need your help to get there?
LC: 14:06 Well, first of all, mindset, a lot of them, they're still stuck in that I'm already too busy. There's no way this, I can do this. But like you got to put that aside because like I said before, it's not gonna change. If you don't stop and you're not gonna have any room to grow as far as, you know, down the road when you want to take time off and you come back to work and there's, you know, two, three times the amount of work because you took a week off and everybody's complaining because they can't get ahold of you. That's the problem. You know? Not to mention the fact that, what about a revenue stream when you retired it, it's just, it's not going to happen if you don't actually do it. So I help them, I hold them accountable. I walk them through the processes that I went through, but I do them in order because I've already learned from my mistakes what not to do. Like don't focus on this. If this is your main problem, let's focus on your main problem. Get through that. We'll walk you in a specific order so that you can come out the other side or you've now got the time to either, you know, sit back and retire. Go on vacation or differentiate yourself with higher learning.
LC: 14:59 Yeah.
MP: 15:07 Okay. Now let's talk about mindset. How do you break away from the mindset of being a technician?
LC: 15:16 Well, I think first you have to, you have to realize that anybody else who's done it is no better than you. They've got the skills. If you're that busy, you obviously know what you're talking about. You know what you're doing. So you have to look inward and say, you know what? If this person can do it, then I can do it. Why can't I? They don't have any special gift that I don't have. No. What they have that's different is that they've taken the steps. So you have to really break free from that. You don't have to think of yourself as some big boss of some big corporate thing. It grows on its own and it doesn't grow overnight where it's you sitting behind a desk and then all of a sudden a week from now you've got 20 employees. That's not how it works. You grow into it very, very gradually so that that's really what you need to look at.
MP: 15:59 Yeah, and I think that's a big powerful piece too to mentoring is surrounding yourself with people that are, are going where you want to go and have already gone where you want to go. It's, it's a magical experience just to spend time with people like that. You see others doing it, you see how they're doing it, and it will shift and alter the way a person thinks and, and also give them the courage to take the actions that they might not have done. So on their own.
LC: 16:30 Absolutely. And I think, you know, having somebody holding you accountable, and not just me, but the entire group holding you accountable because you're gonna want to pipe up and join in on the discussions if you're not doing the work it's going to show. And so by having that accountability aspect that's going to push you to go through this because it's not going to happen on its own.
MP: 16:48 Hmm. I'd love to, I'd love to hear some of the things that nearly stopped you from progressing. I mean, you've built a really great business and you're in many ways living your dream a that you had from the beginning when you decided to make this happen for yourself. But what were some of the things that almost got you?
LC: 17:09 Well, I think at the beginning, you know, the investment, I was very much afraid of the investment. I thought, how am I going to do this? I mean, as you know, I was in a bad situation and I almost had to hide the fact that I was even gonna consider investing in this. The investment was scary, but I can tell you within a few months I started to recover that investment and then I started to go beyond what I invested and I thought, wow, this works. And so, and apart from that, you know, the time that was being freed up as well and how it was organizing me, you know, it kind of just progress's on its own.
MP: 17:41 It's amazing. It's amazing to see. And you also have built up a big community of people that you rely on and that you, you learn from. What's your recommendation to people, uh, that maybe haven't built out their network?
LC: 17:59 No, you have to definitely get involved. Definitely go onto the Facebook groups, talk to people who are in the same boat that you're in, you know, learn as much as you possibly can. Your professional organizations, wherever you are, Canada, the US, Australia, there's all sorts of organizations out there. You've got to get involved. If you stay behind your desk by yourself, overworked and don't know what's going on in the world, especially in our industry, you're going to feel so isolated. You just really need to put yourself out there and don't be afraid to ask questions.
MP: 18:30 It's a, it's shocking the amount of people that don't ask questions and, and there is a great fear that people have about looking stupid or you know, not having the right, you know, look at me, I don't even know what these answers are. What's your recommendation to people that might be going through that?
LC: 18:49 Well, I think that, you know, first of all just everybody's been in the same boat. We all started with the same accounting one oh one and we've all gone in different directions. Some people have gone there faster than others, but there's no point in feeling stupid. You're, you know, everybody's had to learn something at some point, nobody's going to judge you. I mean, I find the community of bookkeepers in accounts that are out there are very giving, very willing to share their experience. Put yourself out there.
MP: 19:15 I love it. And you know, I will say with our community at The Successful Bookkeeper community as well, the pure bookkeeping inner circle community, it's one of the things that we just don't allow as anything that's, that would be considered negative or bullying. We absolutely get rid of that. And so it still requires a risk on our community's part to actually ask questions because there is always a risk that someone will be negative and will make you feel small, but know that there's hundreds and hundreds of people that will back you up. And, and our team as well, we just, we won't tolerate it because there's enough of that in the world. We don't need to have that kind of negativity. There's always a way to be constructive. There's always a way to find a way to help people in a, in a constructive way. So I love that about the community as well. Now, Lisa, talk a little bit about technology. You've mentioned it already, uh, that you use cloud workflow software. What, what gets you excited about the industry today and the technology that we have?
LC: 20:23 Well, I love, you know, things like the automated processing receipt bank and hub dock and all that. I mean those tools in themselves are helping us gain so much more time. So you know, if you're the type of bookkeeper who's used to, you know, the client drops off the shoebox and you sort through that and then you sit there and you manually enter it, you know that that's old school and it's, and it's you're charging by the hour and that's very time-consuming when start bringing in things like receipt bank hub doc, I think there's another one, I can't remember the name of it. Auto entry. That's what it is. You bring those things in. What that does is it allows you to process sort of on autopilot everything that you would normally do. So it decreases your time involvement, but you don't decrease your feet so your margins increase. So you need to leverage all the automation that's out there.
MP: 21:09 Hmm. You know, I heard someone speak about it, just the other actually recent episode, Eh, in that it, it actually is exciting because of the, the industry is pushing, pushing bookkeepers into a position that is much more valuable.
LC: 21:26 Oh absolutely. And if you don't, and if you don't take action on that now you're going to be left in the dust because it's sort of turning like a pivot point right now where you know, business owners are not looking for bookkeepers who are just going to sit there and do yesterday's information. They're looking for bookkeepers who can give them more in a, in a strategy way or you know, an advisory capacity. They want you to be able to look at their data and help them grow their business because who also is going to help them with that. You have the perfect opportunity to do that. You can dive into their books, see what's going on on a day to day basis, look at trends and you know, just even if you're not taking additional training, if you've got the experience behind you, you know, many times you sat there and thought, I can really help this client but I don't have time because I've got to get the processing done. Well if you leverage all the automation that's out there, you're going to open yourself up to have more time and of course, you're going to charge the client more.
MP: 22:19 Hmm. Exciting. And it's and as valuable to, that's the thing that, you know, I can't stress it enough and I often talk about on the podcast is how valuable this work is for businesses. And there's not many in the industry that can actually help.
LC: 22:38 No, no. You really do need to position yourself so that you can help. And that's, that's part of what I talk about so much when you're, when you're transitioning from, from a technician to a strategist, is that you've got to put all these, these processes in place so that you've got the time to do that. Because it's in demand, it's growing, it's constantly growing and word is getting out there. I mean, people understand that bookkeepers, we have a lot of stuff that we can help you with just based on our history. So I'm so stressed for people to just leverage that because it's, it's going to help you in the long run and it's very rewarding as well. Like when you can actually work with a business owner, you know, you want to have a conversation where you're saying, okay, you know your p and l says this and your cashflow says that, that's so boring and, and rudimentary. What you want to do is you want to be able to get on the call with the client, say, Hey, we've done this. I've taken a look at that and here's my suggestion to you going forward. And then that client calls you back a week or two later and say, oh my God. Like you know that suggestion you made that really helped. How rewarding is that?
MP: 23:42 So rewarding. So Lisa, there's so many opportunities, but yet there's so many bookkeepers who are struggling out there. Why do you think that is?
LC: 23:52 Well, they struggle because it's just them. So you know, it's literally you can only make as much and do as much as your own hands can do. Um, they're still stuck on that dollar value, you know, per hour. So their position on price, they're not putting any value into their pricing. And worst of all I find they take on everyone that contacts them. So literally every guy that walks through the door or calls, there's no lead filtering, there's nothing they just take on everybody who wants to do business with them. That's just the worst way to operate. You need to be able to pick and choose who you can work with.
MP: 24:23 Absolutely agree. And I think that takes a lot of really understanding yourself, what you want and as well knowing who are the people that you actually want to work with. So I think it's fantastic. Know you, you've often talked about an exercise that you take people through when they're looking at your program. Share a little bit about that because I think it's really valuable.
LC: 24:47 Well, we do this little thing on a, on a piece of paper with a negative and positive. So like the negatives. Where are you at right now in your business and any of what's holding you back from putting the work into it? So things that I'll typically hear from people that are even considering, you know, scaling on their own, they'll say things like, I can't do it right now because, you know, if I charge more money I'm going to lose more clients. Um, and that the only way that they can make money is if they take on even more clients. Well, that, that doesn't even make sense because that's not how it's done. And they talk about how they're already working nights and weekends, they can't take vacations and they still can't keep up. They talk about how they don't have time to scale now because it's just way too busy.
LC: 25:24 And the biggest thing I hear is that they can't, they can't bring somebody on to help them out because they don't have time to babysit them. And I mean, I was one of them. I was worried about that. I'm sure a lot of people who's hired in the past, I've done that. If you do it the wrong way, that's going to happen. Um, all of us I think are, all of us are guilty of saying no one else can do this the same way I do that. That's it's not true. You can train people to do it the same way you do it if you document it. And then of course, you know, lots of bookkeepers are very upset about the fact that their clients, they don't see any value in them. I mean those are the ones that are gonna, you know, pay their bills late and then, you know, complain about the fees that they charge and all that.
LC: 26:01 They can't go on vacation because then the, I think we talked about this earlier because then there's twice as much work when they get back. And then the biggest thing I think that, you know, longterm we talk about is their retirement. Nobody ever thinks about the retirement. You Go, you work, you make your money and you're doing this day in and day out, but you don't have a pension. You're not working for a company. So when we look at all those negatives and I, and then we go through, okay, if you were to take some action right now and start doing this for yourself, what's going to happen once you come through the other side of putting all this work in and this is how things change. So they say things like, my fees are based on the value that I provide. That's a great one.
LC: 26:41 I mean it's amazing and here's the thing, your fees have nothing to do with what anybody else is charging. I don't care what anybody around me is charging. It has nothing to do with what I charge. I have a fee structure that I have that's based on the value that I provide and that's a big one for people to be able to offer. The other thing is working during business hours, you need to be able to work during business hours, shut it down. Evenings, weekends, those are yours. Their work, their work is organized. They know exactly what's going on at any given time. It's live, it's dynamic and they're able to delegate. Being able to delegate is almost like having a right hand man. It's not just you, not everything's on your shoulders. Um, and that person that they delegate to does the work exactly the same way you do because you've created that process you've created, it's like a manual for your team to work on and the clients now know their value.
LC: 27:31 It's very easy for the client to, to see what you're doing for them. There's no value in transactional recording. It's just for compliance. We don't want to be in that position going on vacation, taking time off, everything's going to run smoothly without you that that's huge. I mean I just did it in February. It was amazing. I didn't even think about work. And then, you know, lastly going back to that retirement thing, if you build this out, the way you can build this out, the way I've built it out, you now have a retirement revenue stream. So you can either just, you know, coast there and start, you know, adding on more to your teams so that the revenues are producing while you're retiring or you know, keep building it and then go into the differentiating part like we spoke about earlier.
MP: 28:11 It's fantastic. You know, good little exercise. It's a great exercise. And you know this, this has been absolutely I think opening up, right? It's opening up possibilities. Everything that you say, you know, we talked about the negatives and then it was like the, the the possibility, right? And I don't, I would imagine that many listeners don't spend enough time thinking about the way they want their life to be. And this is probably sparked the interest of many to say, yeah, you know, what? Find out the way you want your life to be. And guess what? It actually can be that way. There's many people living the life that you've actually talked about. You're one of them. And it does not. It will not. It just is not possible for it to occur. And less you create it as a possibility for you to actually create that. It doesn't just magically appear one day like, Oh wow, when life is the way that I want it to, it doesn't happen that way. It needs to be created and, and built towards. So you, you've done a great job. I think Lisa in, in helping others get excited about that. And so I would love for people to know what's the best way for them to learn more about the seven steps to scale your bookkeeping business masterclass?
LC: 29:30 Well, there's, there's a few ways. First thing I would say, go on to the seven steps to scale.com. So it's the number seven, seven steps to scale.com. Um, there's a lot of information on there. There's a masterclass recording that they can request, which goes through pretty much, you know, a lot of what we've discussed today, a lot about the program that you can be a part of. The other thing they can do is join on a Facebook group. I have a specific Facebook group that's, that's tailored to people who want to make this transition. It's not about general bookkeeping questions, it's about, you know, it's for people who want to move from technician to strategist. And I think that's actually what it's called, a technician to strategist on the Facebook group. So, and that's also linked in that seven steps to scale a page there. So that's probably the best way to get in touch with me.
MP: 30:16 Beautiful. Well, Lisa, this has been absolutely fabulous. I love having you on the podcast. I love conversations with you and I, on behalf of our listeners, I want to thank you for generously giving us your time and your wisdom.
LC: 30:31 Well thank you. I'm hoping that I can help people because it's not that hard. You can do it.
MP: 30:35 Ah, beautiful. And we'll look forward to having you back to give us an update on how that's going.
LC: 30:43 Awesome. I look forward to it.
MP: 30:45 And with that we wrap another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast to learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources. You can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com. Until next time,
MP: 30:54 Goodbye.