EP138: Mark Wickersham – Effective Pricing Tips for Bookkeepers

The easiest way to make more money is simple -- get the price right.

Prices are the single most important element in your profit equation. Get them right and you make a profit. Get them wrong and you'll get a loss.

Our returning guest is a profit improvement and effective pricing expert from the United Kingdom.

Mark Wickersham is a chartered accountant, public speaker and author of many books including Effective Pricing for Accountants and Price: The Fastest Way To Change Profits.

He is famous for helping bookkeeping and accounting firms double their profits in less than 18 months without having to work harder or do any uncomfortable marketing.

During this interview, you'll discover...

  • The different phases of value conversations and the fact finding process

  • The cons in providing an hourly rate

  • The cost plus pricing versus value pricing

To learn more about Mark Wickersham and his services, visit this link.

To buy a copy of Mark’s eBook, How To Price Bookkeeping, click here. 

You can sign up for his webinar, How To Price Bookkeeping on May 7, 8 or 9. Registration details will be posted on his Facebook group and emailed out to anyone who has the eBook.

To join his Facebook group, Value Pricing with Mark Wickersham, go here.  


Michael Palmer: 01:04 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a great one. Our guest is a profit improvement expert from the United Kingdom. He is a chartered accountant, public speaker, and author of many books including effective pricing for accountants. And price the fastest way to change profits. He is famous for helping bookkeeping and accounting firms double their profits in less than 18 months without having to work harder or do any uncomfortable marketing. Mark Wickersham, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Wickersham: 01:40 Thank you so much. That introduction was absolutely awesome, Michael. Thank you for that.

MP: 01:44 It is my pleasure. I mean, anyone that is helping bookkeepers grow their business without our profits, without having to do uncomfortable things is exciting and it's our pleasure to have you on the show. And before we get too far down into actually giving away some of the ideas that you, you help people with, let's, let's help anyone who has not yet heard about you get to know you. Tell us about your career journey leading up until now.

MW: 02:14 Okay, Michael? Yeah. Uh, well I'm uh, as you said, I'm a chartered accountant. I've been in this profession now for, wow, it's over 30 years. It was 1988, came out of university, went to work for a large multi-partner accounting firm after three years qualified as a chartered accountant, spent three years doing taxes in their tax department. And then a little while later started an accounting firm that was May 1996 started with no clients, just a what built his business, uh, and did accounting for a number of years and it was great, fine. I made some miso mistakes and I realized after, uh, after two and a half, three years into my, my firm, I was working crazy long hours. I was enjoying it but working crazy hours and not making money at all. And cashflow is a constant problem until it was, it was really late 1998, early 99, I started to meet some people that changed my life.

MW: 03:05 People I, Steve Pipe, Ron Baker was the first person that taught me his phrase value pricing. I'd never heard of it. And so I started to implement it in my accounting firm in 99, 2000 with amazing results and the results are so good that a enabled me a few years later to sell that firm to my managers in a management buyout. They still run the firm to this very day. And I got invited to start speaking to accountants in the UK in the year 2000. And so I've been teaching accountants now [inaudible] well, few decades now and increasingly in the u s and increase new bookkeepers as well. I was, I was invited by intuit to speak at QB connect. Uh, I think of first, first year was 2015 and they get me back every year, uh, since, and so I've increased new, found myself in the bookkeeping space, teaching bookkeepers how to move to value pricing, how to get better prices.

MP: 03:56 Fantastic. I mean, we're certainly lucky that you've come across the pond as they say, to help, uh, more bookkeepers in North America. And I personally know many bookkeepers who have worked with you and been able to increase their profits and, and, and it's more than just making more money. It's the joy and satisfaction of being able to get, make a really decent income doing the work that they're passionate about. And that's the real, the real gift. Yeah. Making more money, but it's, it's a, it's shifting the way they feel about their business. It's shifting the way that they're able to serve their clients and serve their clients even more. So, uh, I'm excited to help our listeners learn more about you and, and also start to, to shift. Maybe they're thinking about that big shift that you made when you, you heard first Ron Baker talk about value pricing.

MW: 04:49 Yes. I mean for me, what was the big, the thing that changed my thinking in back in 1999 was I'd grown up in the accounting profession believing that you had to keep timesheets. You had to build based on the hour. I didn't know there's another way of doing it, uh, back in 99, but then once I kind of discovered value pricing, it just made so much sense. And what I'm finding in the profession right now is the increasingly there is now thankfully acceptance that we have to move to value pricing. Uh, and that's great. But unfortunately that I'm still finding the numbers that are doing it successfully are still in the minority. There's still a big education process required. And I mentioned some of the bookkeepers I've worked with and some of them are getting some incredible results. Uh, hopefully, uh, we can, we can get that into more of a profession and change more people's lives because it is a great profession. Bookkeepers do a valuable service. They are valuable and they deserve to be rewarded, affords for the value of the difference they can make.

MP: 05:51 You're absolutely right, and if we don't, if it doesn't change, if they don't have the shift to don't move way, it's going to be detrimental to their businesses as well as, as the industry in itself. So this is really critical work that you're doing, critical work that our listeners need to do and they need to pay attention to this. And so let's talk a little bit about the challenges, the mistakes that bookkeepers are making now when it comes to approaching their business and the way they think about pricing.

MW: 06:21 Yeah, there's mistakes that, there's a lot of mistakes that we make and it's nobody's fault is because we make these mistakes in their profession because nobody's taught us a different way. It's not something that the professional institutes teach us, but nevertheless, we are making these mistakes that have to get fixed. I think in, in the bookkeeping profession, uh, particularly one of the biggest ones is quoting hourly rates is if a client says, what will it cost?

MW: 06:46 Giving an hourly rate. And that's bad for, for many, many reasons. And partly because when we start to ones that understand psychology, because what happens is if as a, as a customer, if we're given a price, if someone tells us a price, what happens is where we are, we, we're clueless about price. We don't actually know the price of anything. We learn this from a, a branch of psychology called psycho physics. Uh, and because if you think about it, prices just a is an arbitrary number. There's no science behind price. Like there is with things like temperatures and so on. And so we actually don't, we don't know the price of anything. What we do is at the, and we don't know this is happening, it's the subconscious level. But what we do is we go and make a comparison. We compare with something else.

MW: 07:27 To see if the price seems a fair price or or expensive or low. So if you quote an hourly rate, what happens is the customer, the client in their mind subconsciously will go and compare that hourly rate to something else. And as a bookkeeper you have no control over what's going on in their brain. But one of the things I can almost guarantee is they will never compare it to somebody else who charges a much higher hourly rate. They'll think about it, let's say the hourly rates, $40 they'll think about the 10 15 $20 they pay their secretary all the cleaner to clean their house or the gardener that come and does the garden. And there'll be thinking comparison. Well that's expensive and that's why that's one of the reasons why very often when you quote an hourly rate, the reaction is that's expensive. I think another reason for that as well is there's no inherent value in an hourly rate.

MW: 08:18 Nobody sees value in that hour because nobody goes to buy an hour of a bookkeeper's time. No one, no one wakes up in the morning cause they've got an a, an appointment later on with the bookkeeper saying, wow, I'm so excited I get to spend an hour with my bookkeeper later. Nobody never ever does that happen. They are not interested in buying hours from us. They're buying a solution to their problems. They're buying our knowledge, they're buying results, they're buying value. And so we have to get away from this giving hourly rates because what then happens that leads to the second state. And the second mistake is because people say that where we've, what happens is because we don't, like with jet shoe, when we give a price, we give a price that we hope the client will say yes to. And that usually means is we go in way too low. And so if ever a client says yes to the first price, you know you've left money on the table, you've gone into too cheap. So we, we make so many mistakes and the trouble with these mistakes, whilst they might seem small mistakes, the consequences are huge. It's why most accounting professionals and particular bookkeepers, many of them find themselves working crazy long hours and just finding it tough to make ends meet and the root cause of that is, is pricing. We have to fix that.

MP: 09:38 I agree. I agree with you and I think just in that conversation that you've, you've unfolded for us. We can, we can get it right away. I mean when you're, when you lay something out and you have your, you're basically allowing somebody to focus on an apples to oranges situation. It's like a, yeah, I'm going to compare you with my gardener or my person who it's, it's, it's, it's just, it's creating something that we're at the root cause of it. And so if we take that out of play, we're focused more on something else. And I'm, I'm, I'm thinking that's gotta be an interesting is how do they move away from that? What is the outcome when you start to talk about value and how's your approach in terms of that, what that would look like. Then if you're, if you're not going in by the hour, how are our listeners going to be approaching this?

MW: 10:33 Okay, great question, Michael. So there's a number of phases we have to go through when we have what I call the the the value conversation. When we meet with clients or prospective clients, there are three phases I call them these. Number one is is uncover the value. Number two is build the value in. Number three is capture the value that's uncover, build and capture and the uncover. The value stage is really critically important that not many people get it right. What we want to do is we want to make sure whenever we meet either brand new client or an existing client who wants to buy something new for us from, from us or it might be just reviewing the price. We have to ask questions. I call it the fact find process. It's about getting facts about understanding by asking questions and what we want to do in every conversation.

MW: 11:21 With a client or a potential client that's going to lead to a pricing conversation. First we have to ask questions to uncover things like what are the client's goals? What are they goals in life? What are their goals in their business? What do they want to achieve? What's going wrong right now? What's the pain points? What are the problems we want to ask questions and keep drilling down to build up a better picture of what is their pain right now? What are the problems they're having and where do they want to be? What they, what do they want to achieve with their business, what they want it to look like. Because until we do that, we can't really understand what they value, what's important to them. And when we do that well, and particularly when we ask questions that help us to put numbers on these things and quantify, it helps us then to make sure we deliver the right solution and position our solution in the right way and get the right price.

MW: 12:13 If I could perhaps give an analogy. Nothing to do with bookkeeping right now, but I recently I hired someone to do some digital marketing for me. It's a wonderful couples husband, wife business who know absolutely nothing about pricing, which is interesting. He's not as bookkeepers. Most small businesses know nothing about pricing and as we're having the conversation they were asking me questions about what I wanted to teach for them to do which was, which was run some Facebook ads for example. They were and they were asking questions that were about the things that they would do for me and I could tell from the questions and the way they were thinking is they're trying to work out well how many hours will this take so we can build this? They never asked me about what was my bigger picture goals, what's my real challenges here and what am I trying to achieve and had they have done that.

MW: 12:59 They didn't understood that I have very big growth plans that they can help with by helping with my social media. Had they have got a handle on those numbers, which are the, I'll just make up some numbers, but if I'd have said to them, I'm hoping to increase my revenue by 200,000 by the end of the year through better social media, Facebook ads and so on. How'd they have said we can help you with that? And a price for that will be this. And they price it on a figure that's relatively in the same context of that value. You know, there's a big number because what I want is big. I don't care what they do, I don't care about the hours they spend or what they do. What I care as a customer is, can they help me get to where I want to be? And if the answer's yes, I will pay them a fee appropriate to that and much higher fee.

MP: 13:44 And it's the same with, uh, bookkeeper's, we, we can do so much more for our clients, but we tend to, I think the problem is, is we think of it as a sales, as somebody, uh, as a profession that just does stuff. We process transactions. And actually, there's a lot more that we do. We change people's lives. We can make a huge difference to people's lives because nobody else in society other than bookkeepers and accountants have so much access to a clients of business owners, data, their numbers. Nobody else has that apart from the IRS of course, but they don't use it for the right reasons. Accountants and bookkeepers can get the heart of a business, they can understand the numbers and when we help the client with those numbers to avoid the penalties to help with cash flow, to give them some advice, we can quite literally change people's lives. I've heard of accountants and bookkeepers who've saved businesses by giving some little tips on helping me improve some of their processes. For example, we can make a big difference and we have to understand that we are bookkeeping as a valuable service, incredibly valuable service. And I think if you think about what just the weight on the of small

MP: 14:52 business often is around the numbers and, and they, and you said they the, that it's like just bookkeepers getting this pricing wrong. It's almost every small business. And so right there is in the problem, right? They have their businesses financially are often not working. I mean those are the statistics. It's not, it's not the other way. It's not more, more are being successful. It's more are struggling and so the incredible value. And so do you find it difficult to get this through to your clients?

MW: 15:32 Yes and no. It's actually good, interesting question that I think that it largely depends on to the extent that the, the person I'm teaching is, is open to change because we have to change is, it's a, it's a, it's a big shift to move from cost-plus pricing, time-based billing because it's so ingrained in the profession because we're so used to clocking time and an hours. It's a big shift to change. And so somebody has to be willing to change, has to be open-minded and be willing to learn and try things. Those firms that do that, those firms that listen, they're, they're open to change and they go and take action. Uh, and I know, you know, some of the success stories, there are so many bookkeepers now getting great results by changing the way their pricing. Uh, unfortunately, others struggle because it is challenging.

MW: 16:22 It's challenging because value pricing based on value is difficult. Values d s is very subjective. You can't touch it and measure it or feel it. How do you put a value on doing somebody who's bookkeeping? It's not easily measurable and unfortunately, as a profession we love numbers, we love on numbers, we are great with numbers and what we like about the timesheet is we can add them up and we can multiply by an hourly rate and we feel like they've got an exact number. The fact that it's an irrelevant number seems to kind of pass us by. It's an exact number. Unfortunately, value pricing is more about judgment and it's about having some processes through, for example, asking the right questions, quantifying some of the value in the differences. We could potentially make a and coming up with pricing, which is based on what we're learning about that particular business and what they value and how we can change their lives.

MW: 17:11 And it's, it's not about the number of hours because when we value price correctly, the hours almost don't matter because firms that are doing it are getting so much higher. Prices sometimes double the prices, sometimes three, sometimes four times. I think a lot of people worry that if I go to value pricing and I give a price, what if ends up taking longer than I thought? What if I end up making a loss on the job and that then stops them? That worry stops them taking the first step because they feel safe in their comfort zone of tracking time, logging the hours.

MP: 17:50 You know, it's a major shift and I know that the people that have worked on this in their business, and these are the numbers, it's, it's two times, three times, four times the amount, which which is remarkable. Absolutely remarkable. Is this something that takes a week, a month, a year to get to success?

MW: 18:16 That's a great question. A difficult one to answer because it depends. It varies from person to person. I am seeing some bookkeepers who might, for example, come and do a few webinars with me and after two or three webinars they email me and say, I've tried that idea mark. It's been brilliant. I went see a client the other day and I got 30% higher price. I see other people that are spent six or seven months struggling and then after 12 months on it, the light bulb goes on. Suddenly there's this switch goes and suddenly they get it. So different people move it at different times and sometimes we repetition's really important in life where we learning anything. For example, again, just to use an analogy I, I've always been fascinated by Facebook advertising. I think again, because I love measuring numbers and stuff. Being an accountant myself, the first time I came across it, I couldn't get my head around the concept at all.

MW: 19:07 I couldn't see how it worked. The second time I bought a training course, I suddenly thought, okay, I could sign, kind of see the concept, but I don't actually know what to put into Facebook, how to fill it and what do I put as the objective of the campaign. The third time I bought a course, my mind is in a different place and different things fell into place and eventually I'm a slow learner but eventually after about a year and a half of learning this, suddenly I started to get Facebook ads to work for me and it's the same with pricing. Some people get there quicker, perhaps they watch one or two webinars and it makes sense straight away for other people. It might take a year, it might take two years, but whatever it is, that is a journey that people have to take because it's not just about the money.

MW: 19:49 As you rightly said, Michael, right at the outset, it's not just about the money, it's about what it does for you in terms of things like your self-esteem, about the types of clients you end up working with, because the firms that are good at value pricing, they recognize that it's not about working with every client. It's better to say no to some clients and and therefore the, the book he was doing this really well are actually working with less, less clients, but because of the right clients doing the right sort of work that they're spending their work-life balance is better. Yes, they're making more money, they're doing more interesting work and they're making a difference to client's lives. The clients are getting, they're kind of getting a better service because they can afford because of the price to do more for the client. So kind of everybody wins as a result of that. As I said earlier, we can change people's lives. We absolutely can. We have to kind of focus on, well, what's the client really wants out alive? What will be valuable to them? Because as we can change people's lives, we just need to make sure we create that kind space by charging the right prices, having the right clients, attracting the right clients.

MP: 20:52 I'm excited because I can just, I am almost like I can hear the listener right now, right? And the listener in the listener's mind, it's like, I, maybe you know this, this sounds good, but it's, it's not gonna work for me or it will be difficult. Or I tried that and it didn't work. And to me, this occurs as something that it's, it's not something you should be working on. It's the only thing you should be working on right now in your business. If you don't have this figured out because it leads to a more profitable business, it will lead to you having a better clients, clients that light you up and you them. And I'm excited for what it's going to bring our listeners lives and in their business to get this rolling. And it's like, whether it takes you two years or, or, or two days, it will never happen unless you actually make this a priority.

MW: 21:55 Interesting point that Michael and I, I think it is a priority because when you look at all the challenges people have in their business, bookkeepers, for example, almost every challenge, every problem, the root cause is price. So people say to me at mark, I just can't fight growing my business, but I can't find the right people, the right talent. Well, that's because you are not making enough money to be able to afford to bring in the right talent. Or people say, I'm just working crazy long hours, I'm too busy. That's because you've got too many clients. You have too many of the wrong clients, and because if you get the wrong clients on the wrong price, you just find yourself working crazy busy and never making money. Some people say, mark, the solution to my problem is I just need to win some more clients.

MW: 22:35 When I win some more clients, everything will be fine. No, it won't. Because what happens is you win more clients then you find, because you're already busy, you're a busier, so you hire somebody to go and do the work with all these new clients. Then you realize you've got you. You've just inflated your fixed cost. You've got a salary to pay, so you now need some more clients to pay for the person you've hired to deal with that last lot of clients. And the problem is winning more clients will never fix the problem if all the clients you're winning are the wrong price. Every problem in the accounting firms, the bookkeeping firms, the root cause is pricing. If we, until we fixed that, nothing else will change. We will still find it with stress working crazy hours, life will be tough.

MP: 23:17 It's absolutely right and if you make this a priority, get this fixed and improve this, it provides a whole new future for your business. You can invest in your business, you can invest in better staff, you can really take it to anywhere you want to take it. But it does come back to this and I think it it, you put it in such a simple, a simple message and really, I mean it's a lot more complex than what we're saying, but it's it there a solution for this. We know there's a problem. We know there is a solution and we know there's some really great people that are world class level at solving this problem and that's you. You're, you're definitely one of the world leaders and actually helping people solve this problem. And so I'm thinking the question right now is how do people, what's the first step that people should start to be taking after they've listened to this podcast?

MW: 24:21 Okay. Uh, can I get two steps because I want to give one, there's a practical one cause people would like a practical one. But as he, there's a first step that comes before that and the first step he, I, I think it's about beliefs. This is more of a problem for bookkeepers than accountants and CPAs. I would suggest, and that's a, we have to believe that we worth it. We have to believe that we can change people's lives. We have to believe that we make a difference in this world because all, if all we think is, oh well, I'm just a key prize. I just, I just processed numbers. Then until you change your beliefs and recognize that you can make a difference to people's lives, then you'll never have the confidence to start on this journey. So I think first thing is to just recognize that you are valuable, that you can do great stuff for clients.

MW: 25:08 And what I, when I, I talk to people about this, I ask them to think about all the jobs they've ever done. All the clients they've worked with. Think of the one where they've, they've made that they've been most proud of that where it may be a client that was struggling and they gave some advice on a different way to deal with collecting accounts receivables and that client then start to make more money and has ha what, whatever it might well be. Think of the client you've had an impact on then recognize you could do that. That's the difference you can make to people's lives. So number one I think is, is, is changing our beliefs is, is recognizing that we are valuable. Uh, because that's the thing we need to do that to then have the confidence in terms of a practical step. There are that as you write, you said Michael, it's it, it's complex value pricing is not something you master straight away, but one of the things that I, I been teaching since the year 2000 it was the first thing I did my own accounting firm was to start using what I call menu pricing.

MW: 26:01 Now some people call it a different phrase. Some people call it the good, better, best strategy. Some people think of it as bronze, silver, gold. But essentially it means taking your service, let's say bookkeeping. It will be the same with cleanup work and packaging it into different versions. Technically it's actually called version if you read the textbooks. So having different versions of your service and giving the client the choice. Now, this might sound very simplistic, but it's incredibly powerful. Uh, I ha I still get stories every single week I'll get an email or posting on my Facebook group from somebody who's now given the client three choices and says, I can't believe it. My client chose the middle option or the most expensive one. And I am in shock. They're paying way more than paid before. Well, it works because of some of the psychology behind it.

MW: 26:47 Uh, there are many reasons why it works, but it's also already, it's a simple thing. I call it the first step to value pricing because it's, in some respects it's a little bit oversimplistic, but it does work. And the reason why I think people latch onto this particular technique is because actually if you scared about putting your prices up because you're worried about losing the client, it's a great thing about menu pricing is you just create the, I'll use the phrase bronze, silver, gold, cause people kind of can relate to that. Make the bronze one if you want to the same price as last year, and then just have two other options with some other things in there at much higher prices. And then let the client choose. And people keep coming back to me as frequently saying, I can't believe it. They'd gone for the Middle One.

MW: 27:32 Because what happens is when you, when you are better at explaining the value of what you do, many of your clients, not all, but many clients will, when they see the value, will be willing to pay more money for that value. If we don't give that choice, if we don't give them an option of package of choice that enables them to pay more money. If we only have a bronze service, which is a cheap service, that's all we'll ever get. So if people want to an easy place to get started, I always suggest that as a very simple, practical step. Now I say simple. There's a lot of advanced strategy with menu pricing, but it's nevertheless, it's still somewhere that's a great place to get started.

MP: 28:17 I love that. And it's a, I think I would be bold in saying the first step is to start consuming some of the work that you're doing. I know that Theresa Slack and Theresa Slack is one of these, uh, one of your clients, uh, that has, has done this work and done it really well. She's going to be on the podcast. She's going to come and share a lot of her learnings and, and, and things that she's done. We're hoping to have her, uh, in the future on the podcast. So what she's told me about you, mark, is that for a while she just consumed all of the, the work and gifts and content and webinars and youtube videos and all of the stuff that you've put together to help people learn this. Now she, she took the long road, she was like, well, I'm going to go consume all of the free stuff first.

MP: 29:13 Right. Which was really helpful and probably helped her really launch in to working with you more quickly and getting to results more quickly. But I mean, I'll call a spade a spade. It's like probably better just go right to the go, right and hire you for whatever that looks like. Go hire mark to get this done. Uh, but there, there is, you got to get to your website, you got to start getting this into your mind and I'm sure a lot of the work that you do, and that's some of the work that we do here too. On this podcast is belief, right? Is I don't know that there's a podcast that goes by that I don't tell our listener. You are valuable and isn't it so interesting how we're sole proprietors, we working in a business, our business reflects who we are, how we believe, you know, our beliefs about ourselves, our beliefs about you know, who we are or view of the world.

MP: 30:01 All of that shows up in our business. And so it's a little bit of personal development work that needs to be done on yourself and loving yourself, loving who you are and valuing who you are and what you bring to the world. And I love how you gave the suggestion of looking at, look here, look where you're making a difference in the world. Look at all the things that you've done. Look at the smiles you've created. Look at the better table conversations that you've enabled your clients to have when they go home from work and their day was better, their business was better so that they can go home and really truly be with their family. That's the work you're doing on that belief side. And so get more of that from our guest today, mark, who will help you. I can't say this enough. This is a problem that is everywhere.

MP: 30:45 It's in every small business and here is an industry where where it's become some really great resources and tools to actually get this done, get it done well, and have this working in your business so that you can help others, that you work for the small businesses out there that truly need your services. So I love, I love that mark. And before we got onto the, uh, the podcast, you were talking about a Webinar, you do it not that often, right? It's like a once a quarter type thing. You'll do this, uh, alive. It's alive weapon. Are you brand? They actually you on there, it's live. You're probably having some interaction with people. You do that. How often?

MW: 31:27 Yeah. Well I do, I actually do webinars and free training every single month, every single month, every month. But one of the particular things I, I've found recently that one of the questions that people asked me the most was how do you price bookkeeping? And so I, I actually have a lot of training specifically on that in a wet and some free webinars on that which I run roughly every six months. Uh, I also wrote a little while back an ebook called how to price bookkeeping. So that's probably a good place to start if you want to grab a copy of our ebook and that'll give you some points as a, an expand on what I've said today on, on, on how to price bookkeeping. And then what I will happily do is, is I can email you every months with some free training. Uh, I run a webinar once a month on different pricing topics, sometimes how to price, how to price cleanup work, uh, how to, uh, how to come up with your price, things like stuff like that. And of course, if I then run my how to price bookkeeping Webinar, I would be delighted to invite you along.

MP: 32:30 Beautiful. Now your website, the website that they would be going to as your last name, correct?

MW: 32:36 Correct. Yes. So two things. I think a really one is my, my website, which is www dot of course. And then my name Wickersham, W I, C K, e r s h a m.co.uk. And the other place, if you, if you have specific questions for me, if you want to learn more about value pricing, I also have a Facebook group called value pricing with Mark Wickersham. So if you go look for value easy. Yeah, just join the community and, and you can ask me questions. I will, I, I share videos, I shout answers on that community. And I also encourage people to share success stories to raise. As you mentioned, she's one of my staff students. She's amazing. A lovely lady. Ah Yes. It took her a while to get success, but now I think she, she met tells me every month about new things she's doing. She's extraordinary. The success and many others in the community. I encourage people to share successes because the more of these successes are in our shared, the, it inspires others because it demonstrates what's possible that we can do this as a profession.

MP: 33:38 You're absolutely right. Seeing others is believing and sometimes it takes a few times for it to catch, but it's tremendously valuable. And I'm excited for our listeners as you can. You could probably tell about getting this problem solved. We're going to have a link to your website. You do this, this new training course, how to price bookkeeping services. It's not on all the time, but go there and check it out. Find out about it. You can get it@wickersham.co dot. UK and of course, that link is, will be right there on the podcast notes if you need to get to it. Mark, this has been absolutely tremendous from all of our listeners out there that are listening. Uh, my thank you to do, they're their thank you to you for so generously giving your time and sharing and doing this work to help this industry. It's making an impact and it will continue to make an impact. And I hope for you and for the people you work with, uh, a massive impact globally.

MW: 34:38 Well, thank you for that, Michael. I love being an accountant myself. I love helping people in this great profession. So thank you so much for inviting me to share some thoughts.

MW: 34:47 It's been all our pleasure. And with that, we wrap another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time,

MW: 35:05 goodbye.