EP123: Bianca & Dianne Mueller – How To Close The Generation Gap


You see, each generation has different ideas, opinions, tactics, styles and preferences of technology they use when running a successful bookkeeping business.When different generations collide in a working environment (ie: you and your employees), it can be hard to collaborate at times because of their different points of view.

As a result, communicating properly and getting on the same page can be a challenge.

However, our guests today successfully found the solution in bridging the generation gap.

They’re currently working together in helping businesses and entrepreneurs thrive.

Returning guest, Dianne Mueller is the co-founder of the Institute of Professional Bookkeepers of Canada (IPBC) and owner of SOMA Small Business Solutions while her daughter, Bianca Mueller, is a second generation Certified Professional bookkeeper in Vancouver, Canada.

During this interview, you'll discover...

  • How to overcome the challenge of communicating with employees from various generations

  • How trust and respect play an important role in having different generations of workers

  • How to create a productive working environment

To find out more about Dianne and Soma Small Business Solutions, visit here.

To find out more about Bianca, click here.

To listen to Dianne's past episode, discover here.

To reach Dianne, you can email her at dianne@simplysoma.com.


Michael Palmer: 01:24 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer. And today's show is going to be a terrific one with a bit of a twist. Both of our guests are very familiar with the bookkeeping industry and that's right. We have two guests on the successful bookkeeper podcast for the very first time. The first is a co-founder of the Institute of Professional Bookkeepers of Canada and owner of Soma small business solutions. And our second guest is a, this is a clue, a second generation certified professional bookkeeper living in Vancouver, Canada, Dianne Mueller, and Bianca Mueller. Welcome to the podcast.

Dianne Mueller: 02:12 Thank you very much Michael. I'm happy to be back.

MP: 02:16 Yes, and that's right. It's like, it's like a couple of, first it's like you're also back as a return guest and you brought your daughter along, which is you know, second generation. So I'm super excited about this episode and before we get into why I'm so excited about this episode, I'd love for both of you to share just a little bit of your bookkeeping journey leading up to this point. And so why don't we start with you, Dianne, because you are, have been on before. And so if people are interested in hearing more about Diane, they can always go back to that episode as well and we'll have a link to that show on the notes.

DM: 02:57 Great. Okay. Yeah, sure. So my is very long. I've been a bookkeeper my entire adult life started out in ledgers where we were still using the five books of accounting and bookkeeping, doing those big long 12 column ledgers and then progressed into the software desktop software when it came out in the late seventies and early eighties. And then about 2007, actually in 2007, I was starting to feel pretty frustrated in the industry that we were constantly competing with bookkeepers that didn't know as much, weren't keeping up with technology and um, wanted to start an association for the professional bookkeeper just to raise the bar and actually have us get recognized for, you know, the value that we bring to small business. And that's where myself and two other bookkeepers started. The Institute of professional bookkeepers. Sadly, those other two bookkeepers dropped off pretty quickly, but I was determined and carried it through.

DM: 04:10 So, um, now, Gosh, 12 years old and has gone through a huge amount of disruption in the industry and has survived it and done well and first solo small business solutions. As I started to grow and become really professional, I brought in family members as we kind of tell you this joke. It used to be sad all the time. You know, when other bookkeepers were struggling on how to find really good staff, they could all say Whoa, can't all be like Diane and breed them because I had my daughter working for me, Bianca who's on the call today, my son who still works for me, Christopher and my sister in law. So it was a very family-run business for a lot of years. That's about the uh, the journey so far, but it's good. 30 years old now.

MP: 05:05 Wonderful. Wonderful. Welcome to the podcast and, and we're going to, uh, say hello to Bianca and find out her story and it's, we've already got a bit of the story. So Bianca, welcome.

Biana Mueller: 05:20 Thank you for giving birth to me. Um, yeah, so basically I actually, um, I studied marketing in school and as much as I loved that job because I'm fairly extroverted, um, at the end of the day it wasn't really, um, mentally challenging enough for me, I guess you could say, or maybe it was the industry I was in. Um, but at some point I was like, I'm tired of working every evening and weekend and special event and special occasion and holiday. So I was married, I had a young family and I kind of always helped the family business out on the side, know spring break, summer vacation, all those kinds of things. And I am a complete byproduct of being raised by entrepreneurs. So it was a fairly a natural transition into helping my mom part time in her business. And um, and then right away I literally went from part time to full time, probably within a few months of starting with her and um, and we took some of the small business solutions to the next level. And then in 2012 I branched out on my own and was doing consulting on the side and I'm still to this day. So my small business solutions and Diane and I, we all overlap our clients and referrals and connect on all sorts of different levels through different accounting firms and clients. So it's a, it's a really great mentorship and we collaborate a lot. It's fantastic.

MP: 06:46 That's fantastic. Well, I'm really looking forward to having both of you in a conversation that we're about to have. And we had, Bianca initially had discussed at the, a institute of professional bookkeepers of Canada conference, which happened in Calgary recently. We talked about getting on and having a conversation around burnout in the, in the industry. And so we then had a conversation and you had some thinking and we decided to have Diane and your mother come on and actually talk about this from a different angle, which is more of the different generations that are in the industry, which I think is really interesting and we've never tackled on the successful bookkeeper podcast. So kind of another twist to having this episode happened.

DM: 07:36 There's not very many families that have multiple generations in the industry side by side. And so it's worked out well.

MP: 07:42 Yeah, absolutely. So why were we going to talk about burnout? Why did you think that that was something we should be discussing? And then how did that turn into talking about generational gaps?

BM: 07:55 Well, it's funny you say that because it started and you know, I, I skipped out on a session at conference. Don't tell anybody.

MP: 08:02 Did he get a point for that? I hope you did.

BM: 08:05 Yeah. By Izz credits, there was a few of us in my generation generation, you know, x, y, z kind of millennial. We all skipped out one day and we're like, let's go to the hot tub was a nice hotel. We don't ever get to w you know, we collaborate all the time, but we're never in the same province. So it was fantastic for us to all be in one place at one time. Me, and you know, my, my same age group peers that are in the industry. So we all kind of went and had our own session in the hot tub and we were like, we're all burned out. We're all young moms, we all have crazy families, crazy schedules, our own businesses and we all have this burnout going on. But at the same time we like, we want to bring in these technologies to alleviate some of the stresses that we have and create more flexibility in our home life and our business life.

BM: 08:55 And, and so we're like, are we actually burned out? And that was like kind of the question, are we burned out or is it just like information overload? Is there too many expectations from the industry for us to all transition? And it just became this bigger conversation that I left that hot tub that day and I started speaking with more and more of my peers. And obviously Diane and I, we speak often on all sorts of industry topics and issues and you know, hot topics. And so I started talking about it with her and, and got a whole new perspective on the whole thing. And then by the end of conference, it wasn't even necessarily the burnout that was like the, the burning question. It was more about [inaudible] the different generations and how we need to collaborate and mentor each other in this journey.

MP: 09:47 Wow. Interesting. And Diane, what's your take on this?

DM: 09:52 Yes, absolutely. Um, the younger generation, of course, has got a lot of challenges right now. Every time we turn around there's another app or another technology that needs to be learned and they're really, really good at it, right? I mean, they grew up with computers and it comes so natural to them. Whereas my generation, we struggle a whole lot more with though that technology and understanding of the apps and how they will actually work for our clients. So I thought what we really need to be talking about is we now have these two generations, those that are, you know, kind of 45 and under, and then those that are 55 and over and why not work together? Because we've both got so much knowledge to pass on to each other and their ability to actually pick up on the technology that we need going forward is amazing.

DM: 10:50 They just, it's like, it's like taking a fish to water kind of thing. And it certainly isn't that way for, for us. We struggle a whole lot more with it. So I started to see that there's an opportunity out there for us to collaborate more and mentor going back both ways. And, uh, we started to talk about that and that's where this kind of conversation came out that they've got so much to give to us and we've got so much to actually give back to that generation that's going to make them more successful going forward, which is they're the, you know, there's a future. We're not. So having said that, yeah, really, you're not retiring. Do are you kidding? 44% of us that are over the age of 55 have absolutely no plans for retirement. So what that really said to me, well, if we're not going to retire, then we have to embrace this technology in a big way and to be able to grow and continue to have our businesses out there in the forefront helping other small businesses.

DM: 11:57 So we're going to need help to do that. So why not, you know, call on the other professional bookkeepers that are in the younger age groups to help us do that. And then we can also, you know, really talk to them about how not to get burnt out in this industry because after all, we're the ones that I think anyways were the forerunners in so many things with technology and also so many things with just raising up the professional bookkeeper to the status that it enjoys today. So we had our struggles too, and can bring some of those solutions to the table.

MP: 12:45 I would agree. And it's it, I would say that there's, there's also, I mean it's almost like there's no choice. You have to work together. Both parties have to work together. Your generation. Diane has incredible knowledge and experience and really deep, deep understanding of the fundamentals because you were taught differently than today's younger generations were taught. And so there's, I think a difference there right away, a deeper understanding of the fundamentals that's super important to getting it right. But then the younger generation has a deeper understanding of the technology and the embracing of technologies because that's really how it has been their life. So you have to work together. Both, I have this benefit, but there's some challenges in doing that for sure. That I think a lot of people want to solve.

DM: 13:33 Absolutely. Absolutely. I can remember trying to explain t accounts to Bianca and she's like, okay, but doesn't it doesn't the software do that for me? I mean, luckily I had you to learn from and you made me and it's, it's kind of, you know, it's Kinda true right now that we have this technology. There isn't the depth of knowledge that goes behind that. So, but that depth of knowledge is so important in the advisory role. Yeah. That were using going forward because without that depth of knowledge, Michael, you're absolutely right. We can't help the small business owners to the extent that we need to.

DM: 14:11 It's the same as my, my son's generation. They don't do long division. They, they, it's a calculator. It's sort of the same transition. You guys did everything manually. My generation didn't, you know, there are some people in the generation that kind of did their accounting degree and went at it from, you know, financial school standpoint. But most of the people in my generation and younger, they, yeah. You'd like you said mum, they, they just learned the software. They didn't actually learn the skills that you need to be a bookkeeper and to translate the data from the software

DM: 14:45 and to understand the data because that's what we're now becoming as these data managers of, uh, the, the apps and the, and the technology is managing the data. So we need to really understand now to be able to move into that next realm of being the advisor to book it to a, um, small business owner bookkeepers and fill bookkeepers. Exactly. And that's right. I fear sometimes that we're, we're creating a gap there. There definitely is a gap. Direct it. Yeah. That needs to be, um, looked at and fixed.

MP: 15:24 Yeah. Cause it is about the bookkeepers and we, luckily we have IPBC to hold us all together and have a core group where we can all meet on a, on a level that's not biased to any softwares or, or companies or sponsors or any of those kinds of things. So we're very lucky for to have IPBC see for that.

BM: 15:44 Yeah, I agree in that's where you're going to get this solved and at. And so this gap of knowledge that we have. How, because I would, I would assert that I, I've had the experience and I've heard my mother's generation, Diane, which is, I think we're all sort of around the same ages here. My mother is, is, is maybe just a little bit older than, than you, Diane and, and

BM: 16:10 being so kind, but probably not.

MP: 16:14 Well, she, she, uh, we actually had a, a business together and she would hire like millennial types and it was like she wanted to mentor and coach and she's very lovely. I mean, I'm biased, but he's a lovely woman, very giving, very generous. Loves what she, she does and loves to share with anyone what she does. And yet that generation often they would be like, you know what, I can do it. I don't need your help. And it's not to say that that's wrong. I mean there's, there's qualities about being the trailblazer and wanting to figure it out on your own. But there's this gap around giving and receiving information that there's like this, it's like a communication breakdown. How do we solve that?

BM: 17:01 Well, it boils down to trust. We have to trust both generations and respect both generations as to what they bring to the table. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of bookkeepers out there right now that are wanting to expand their business and by expanding their business, they're going to be interviewing and hiring on people of beyond cause generation. And they sit down and I, I've seen this happen so many times. They sit down and they're right away whizzes at the computer. But when you ask them what it is that they've actually done or get them to sit down and talk about a financial statement with you, that's where they fall down. We need both. And I, and I hear bookkeepers all the time saying, well, I couldn't itch. That person didn't work out because they didn't understand a financial statement. They, I couldn't send them to a client and have them sit down and explain those numbers to a client, which is really the important person in this equation. So by US older bookkeepers taking that knowledge and passing it on to the generation that everything in their mind runs on a computer is so important right now because how else do they become advisors, which is where the whole industry is going. Yeah.

BM: 18:32 The school doesn't even teach that. It's all working in the industries and pounding the pavement of getting all those years and years and years of knowledge and experience that's going to give you that translatable information to give to your clients regarding their industry and their financial statements. So you guys have that information.

DM: 18:54 Yeah. And just simple, you know, other things that we're going to need to be doing in the future with our clients. Like helping them with pricing, helping them know how to put together funding options, all of those things. Well, you know, as old timers we, we did all of that and we've got all of that depth of experience that I see is somewhat missing in that younger generation. So again, they can teach us things, bring on the technology, help us adapt to all of the different apps and the technology. But then we need to actually bring them on board about all of the advisory services and really understanding how to help that small business take it to the next level.

MP: 19:45 Yeah, I agree. So I have a question for both of you, different angles. So I'm really curious to know what in your experience, Diane, how you, you, where you found it, the most effective tool to transfer your knowledge and street smarts, if you will, that you've gained over the 30 years you've been at this. And Bianca mentioned, right, that's schools. You don't learn the street smarts in school. How do you, how have you best been able to translate and, and, and really give your knowledge to the, to your younger staff. And then also after, I'd love for you by go to, to share how w how it's been best received and how you've been able to best help people in a, you like your mother embrace or overcome challenges when it comes to things that you're strong on around technology.

BM: 20:39 Well, I have to say because they, they were family, they really didn't have a choice. They had to go to number one tip for the violence component. There's also a genetic

BM: 20:48 component. I come buy a lot of it fairly honestly.

DM: 20:52 Um, so yeah, and there was a side of that that, you know, she was pretty quick at picking up the reasons why. And I guess that's what it boils down to. Why are the numbers the way they are and then taking that end result of the financial statement or you know, accounts receivable statement and working it backwards with them so that we were constantly auditing ourselves and understanding what those numbers meant. And as time went on, you know, Bianca would get better and better at that and she knew the questions to ask and she knew where to go and look to make sure that it was reconciled properly and that all of those numbers were true numbers and certainly took some time. It's not something that you can teach overnight, but being in there and actually working with the small business owner, with me as the mentor near the, the end of time where Bianca wasn't working in our actual office anymore, she was starting to go out with clients. I would trust that she could talk to clients, but that certainly wasn't something that I did in the beginning, right? I was right there the whole time making sure that the client was getting what they needed from Bianca would ever clients Bianca was working on. And she would sit back and she would listen and she would understand the questions first and then be able to actually tell the client what the answers were. And she just got better and better at that. How long has it been Bianca? Actually?

BM: 22:28 Well, I was just thinking, so I kind of branch out on my own in 2012 and I started working for some small business solutions about four years before that. So it took, it's about four years before I had the confidence to do that and go on my own for sure. But I had a really good solid understanding and foundation before that happened. Like I went full time on my own in 2012 there was little bits I was doing consulting for you and you trusted me, you know, doing things for you on your behalf. But for probably a year, so before that, so yeah, I was, it was a solid, you know, three years of my mom literally on one shoulder mentoring me, making sure I did everything right. It was a lot of self auditing, like you said, teaching this self audit is so integral, it's so integral.

DM: 23:20 And my investment in all of that, Michael was, you know, there was certain rules and regulations, you know, paperwork didn't go out to the client until I had had a chance to review it. Now, that was a lot of work for me at the beginning, but it sure paid off after about two years when I, I was, you know, complete confidence in Bianca or my sister in law suit to send out financial statements and know that they were right. And rarely did I hear back from the client that there was any issues with them because they really knew what they were doing and they could answer those questions. And that's so important.

MP: 23:59 Absolutely. And for you, Bianca, when you, what would be your viewpoint now into this conversation and advice on I'm working with, of course you are family. So yes, we've addressed that. It, it's a bit different, but what, what are your, what's your take?

BM: 24:17 Well, like even now, so I took all that information that I learned and when you completely understand the whole process of bookkeeping and that's sort of the, the main point here is you need to understand that whole process of full cycle of bookkeeping. And once I fully understood that, I was constantly looking for ways to make it more efficient. And so when technology came into the picture, you know, what's kind of been making its way for the last, I don't know, 10 years, but really only in on on the Canadian marketplace, readily available and, and at a level where we can bring our clients on board probably only in the last like five years and even more seriously in the last like two years. So I have been looking and searching and every time I'm online and every time, you know, Google forces me to look at ads and Facebook forces me to look at aheads because I've been searching APPS and technologies and efficiencies and bookkeeping, you know, it just floods me with information and I just can't get enough of it.

BM: 25:23 I love it so much that I almost like overdose on the technology that's available to me. So I have to scale it back and go to conferences and meet with the vendors, meet with the actual software companies and the tech companies and get down to asking them specifics on how these are going to apply to my clients. Because every client I, for me, I have so many different industries. I do not specialize in one industry. I've got a developer client and automotive client, a private school. I've got so many. The my spectrum is very broad. So each different app or technology is going to work for different clients. So I kind of need to know all of the technologies available. Plus I'm a bit of a tech addict. So

BM: 26:11 Yeah, I think it, I think it's important because as things change you have to understand the landscape. Otherwise, you know you're going to be, you may be pigeonholed into something that's not as good and and make sometimes making them all work together. So I think that you're on the right track there. Oh

DM: 26:28 Fair. No, I can have, I was just going to say, I can actually remember a time when a Bianca was in the office every single day with me and he was always looking for ways to make it faster and better and easier and take less time. She was the one that actually implemented client track way, way back for us for so that we didn't lose a deadline for GST or you know, tax installments. And she was right on top of that in the office. Really keen to, to make sure that that was working and teaching it to everybody. So yeah, kind of was in her blood to,

DM: 27:06 and that was in what, 2010?

BM: 27:07 Nine

DM: 27:10 Uh, yeah, I would probably even say earlier than that. We were really quite, you were there as soon as one of the first CRM for small business came out, which was at that time called client track. But

DM: 27:20 yes, luckily we have social media. Fortunately a lot of the APPS, because they're in the tech space, they're in the social media space and they want to advertise to everybody. And because I'm a young generation, I'm in every facet of social media. I am exposed to it on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. So I don't actually have to like source it out as much anymore. So it's all in my pace. It's great. So unless you're not in social media, like some of my mom's generation, if you're not there, you're not getting the updates, the new tech, the new trends. You're not getting that stuff

DM: 27:57 unless you go to the IPBC conference then you really,

MP: 28:01 That's right. That's right. Now, uh, Bianca, if you were going to give advice to our listeners that are from your generation, uh, and they're working, let's say that they're working, they're not in a business for themselves, but they're, they're getting the experience and they're working for an older generation. What would be some of your advice on how to bring new ideas, new thoughts to the older generation?

BM: 28:27 Well, I mean, at the end of the day, we all want efficiencies and my generation needs a lot more flexibility with lived work balance because we want flexibility on working hours and days off and all those types of things. So I think it actually even goes back a little bit, one step further. And if you're going to be hiring people in my generation, you, you sort of have to have those, those things in place already so that they can be cloud accessible, work from home. You know, having all the bank feeds that have the integrations and having your employee, your younger employee or younger generation have all those things available at their fingertips for them. So they don't need to actually be in your office, you know, that whole brick and mortar retail space now, you know, it's not necessary. People work all across Canada and um, it doesn't matter exactly where you work anymore. So yeah, just having, having a lot of the technology available for my generation to, to work efficiently is probably the best thing you could do as an employer.

MP: 29:45 For sure. And Diane, what is your advice to younger generation if they're, if they're working for someone like yourself? Because I've heard, I've heard other people in your generation complain about hearing their staff have new ideas and wanting to bring, do it a different way, do it a different way to do it a different way because they, it's like Bianca had all these great ideas and she's been doing that. She's in the business and it's like you, she's your daughter. And it's like, yeah, this is cool. Okay, sure. And there may have been friction at time. Who knows? But you know, you think it's can be frustrating for someone who's like, while we're doing it this way and you know, if hired you and just, just do the job that I way I want you to do it. What advice would you give to them?

DM: 30:31 You know, I, I certainly credit a lot of the success for Soma small business solutions and we became quite successful by the fact that Bianca was implementing all of those time saving devices for us. I might not have had the time to do it, nor the ability to do it as quickly to go out there and to seek how can we do this faster, easier, more efficient. But because she wanted that and it was really something that was very powerful to her by her doing those things and me giving her the room to do that, we grew faster. Yes, for sure. And it's really important that we do develop. Yeah. W we have to develop that multigenerational, especially right now because we're, that's another disruption that I see that's happening in the industry. So as older bookkeepers, we need to have those younger bookkeepers bringing in those new ideas and helping us become more efficient and effective so that we can actually do what our new role is as a bookkeeper.

DM: 31:50 And that is going out there and working directly with the small business owner. So we're not in the back room anymore. We're up at the front of the board room table. In order to do that, we have to have solid numbers and we have to have efficiencies to get real time data to our small business owners. So without that technology constantly changing and moving forward, we're not going to be successful. So if you are not going to retire, you really need to embrace it and find someone younger that's going to help you embrace it and move your firm forward.

MP: 32:26 Lovely. You know, as, as technology changes and I mean we see it in our business all across. It doesn't matter what piece, whether it's the, the booking, keep bookkeeping end, the marketing, the, there's technology changing everywhere. It's almost, there's the, which creates all these gaps, right? They use that break. It's like it works. It's like, so you've got these beautiful promises and when it's working and connected and you know, in one moment it's like magic and then something changes and API this, that, it changes. Yes. No, it's almost creating a whole nother role in the industry, which is an almost a technologist to keep the machine working.

DM: 33:09 Absolutely. And you know what though, Bianca is and her generation are so much more better at handling that disruption than what my generation is. What it does it work for me? It's, it's panic. Why isn't it working? What am I going to do? How, you know, and, and she and her and her generation, they look at it and they go, okay, so no big deal. It's just a computer. It's just an app. I'm not afraid of it. We'll figure it out. So not so daunting for sure. Not so daunting for them. So that's another way that they can really help in a, in the growth of a bookkeeping firm.

DM: 33:45 I don't know if that's it. And that's because my generation has been exposed to technology and the hiccups of technology for a lot longer. Like when you are, when you were growing as a bookkeeper and your younger years like you after when you move to a desktop product, you learn that product and there wasn't much change. There was uptake. They make things a little bit better every once in a while and, but there was like not a lot of hiccups in your day to day bookkeeping

DM: 34:14 and, and also you have a trust because you did grow up with it. You trust that it will work itself out. I bet you there's a lot of people who are listening right now, Michael, that will admit to you that when desktop bookkeeping first came out, sage, Eh, you know, quickbooks, all of them, we ran two sets of books because, because we didn't actually trust that the computer wouldn't be right. And I did that and I know there's other bookkeepers that are my age that did that also for that first three or four months and then, you know, look at the numbers and say, okay, well yeah, it does do it. Right. Okay. So we didn't ever have the trust that they, that the generation now has because they've grown up with it.

MP: 35:00 That's right. Definitely some pros and cons there. I mean, I really like the, the thought, it's like they understand the, the layer that they're working in and it's because of all this technology and convenience calculators, you know, like it, it, they don't have to go down into the weeds and understand how this stuff's actually working, which is a con. It's a challenge. You don't have that deep fundamental understanding. But I think what I heard in this conversation is important when you're maybe hiring staff or looking at someone to come and work with you is are they, do they have the personality of wanting to understand how the clock works and, and, and that alone can be a, a sign that they may be open to mentoring and, and, and helping them understand the deeper understanding or the fundamentals of, of the industry and take on that mentoring. But on the other side as well is as your generation Diane is being open to, hey, this, this could be great and we can partner together to help it help us all win.

DM: 36:00 Yes, absolutely. Yes. I really do contribute a lot of the assess the success of so much because a Bianca did come on board at exactly the right time and I was happy to have her. And I, I think I'm probably a little bit more open to technology than some of my peers, but, um, I was really happy to have her taken run with some of these things to help us become more efficient and cohesive as a company because we weren't always all together either. We were probably one of the first ones that were, you know, remote and had a team that we needed to communicate with each day. So Bianca handled a lot of that technology at that time and it really did push us forward.

MP: 36:48 Wonderful. Well, this has been fantastic. I'd love for you both to share, if there's listeners that want to connect with you or find out more about your businesses, how can they do that?

DM: 37:00 What's your I'm pretty easy to find actually. It's a, it's a Google me, but uh, my email address is just Dianne and remember Dianne has two N's, so it's Dianne@simplysoma, s o m a.com. And of course I'm on Twitter at, @ DMueller. Thank you.

DM: 37:20 And I can be found through my company books by Bianca. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Just search books by Bialik on all of them and you'll find me.

MP: 37:31 Wonderful. Very active social media. Yes, you are. And uh, and, and really it's been a pleasure having both of you as a first as well for the podcast. And on behalf of all of our listeners, thank you for the generosity and giving your time to share your wisdom, the things that have worked that haven't worked and helping them maybe take a new leap it towards the success they want in their business. It's a, it's great to have had you come by.

DM: 38:01 I hope that this will encourage some of the bookkeepers that are not quite ready to retire. They don't have to do this alone. Go out and find someone that is of that age group that will want to learn from you and respect all of the things that you want your company to represent, but also help you to come into the technology. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MP: 38:26 Definitely. Beautiful. Well, thank you both.

DM: 38:38:29 Thank you.

BM: 38:30 Thank you.

MP: 38:31 And with that, we wrap another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com. Until next time, goodbye.