EP12: Debbie Roberts - How To Hire Trustworthy, Talented & Loyal Bookkeeping Staff

Stop hiring poorly qualified employees!

Pure Bookkeeping co-founder, Debbie Roberts knows the effects of that.During her 30 plus year career, she's hired her share of disasters that cost her time, credibility and sanity.

After learning from her mistakes, she eventually figured out how to systemize her hiring process which was one of the things that eventually helped her bookkeeping business sell for high 6 figures in 2014.

During this episode, you'll learn...

  • How to create a skills test to measure the ability of potential bookkeeping employees

  • What questions to ask when interviewing job candidates

  • Why you should never believe a resume

To find out more about Debbie, visit https://purebookkeeping.com/about.
To check out her book, The E-Myth Bookkeeper, click here.


Michael Palmer: 01:02 Hello and welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper again. I keep dragging her back and she's been so gracious. Debbie Roberts, the co-founder of Pure Bookkeeping and the co-author of the E-myth Bookkeeper: why most bookkeeping businesses don't work and what you can do about it. It's a fantastic book and I want a warm welcome to you, Deb. Thanks again for coming back and joining us on this next episode of the successful bookkeeper. 

Debbie Roberts: 01:31 Thank you, Michael. I'm really pleased to be here. 

MP: 01:34 Absolutely. And I know we're gonna, I'm going to keep twisting your arm and I know you're so gracious about it. So thank you. And, um, I know the listeners, uh, we're going to just really enjoy today's episode because you know, this is maybe an advanced conversation, but any bookkeeper that's serious about having a business now there's a Prac, you could call it a solo bookkeeper. We could say as a practice where you're working for yourself and you're, you're improving your business from a system standpoint and getting your prices up so that you can actually make a really great living as a practicing bookkeeper. But if you want to have a business where you have employees and staff, well, you need to hire staff, bookkeepers. And we don't want to have just anybody working for us. We want to have the very best people working for us because anything other than that is a nightmare. And any business will, uh, any business owner will tell you the very same thing. It doesn't matter if you're a bookkeeper, you're a plumber, you're an electrician, you are a franchise. It's all about having great staff. And now bookkeeping is a very technical business, a Deb. So I'm excited to, to hear your philosophy and your strategy because you had 12 bookkeepers working for you at the same time and many of them were with you for years. And so I think people are gonna want to know like, how did you do this? 

DR: 03:02 It was a, it was excruciating for many years until I got the full formula right. The safest way for me at the start because I didn't have any systems around the HR process was to the first couple that I put on with people, friends of a friend. Um, so they were, they were bookkeepers and referred to me by someone else and, and they, they were actually two of them that did stay with me for more really right up until the end when I sold my business in 2014 that dried up then and then I needed to recruit strangers, if you like. So in this, I said in the most dory earlier in one of the earlier podcasts that this was a terrifying experience because, um, I didn't trust actually anyone. Um, because I cleaned up messes left behind by bad bookkeepers or inexperienced bookkeepers. 

DR: 03:58 So I really wasn't confident with this being a solution. But I thought, well, this is the only thing we have to make this work. So, so let's do that and place the ad and just put people on. I interviewed them. My interview back in those days was more like a chat. So it was, I even met people in coffee shops on occasion as well. And I was desperate. I desperately wanted someone, this person to work out because I was already flat out. I was working a ridiculous number of hours that the staff couldn't do that I couldn't do anymore. So it always fell on me to do it. And so basically, I looked at a resume and I was so naive. I had no HR experience. There are too many bookkeepers that have HR experience. It's fair to say. So I would read a resume and they'd say, yes, I've got skills in this software. 

DR: 04:51 I've been bookkeeping for this many years, and, and these are the different things. I go, well that looks pretty good. That's exactly what I'm after. Great. Let's just have a coffee and I'll talk to her and make sure that we seem to be on the same page. It didn't ask any detailed questions, just a little bit about their history and what have you and said, great, let's come and start working for me. And I lost count of the number of times that broke my heart. It's so demoralizing when you finally do find someone that you think might be right and you put them with the client and then it doesn't work out and then you've got to tell the client, look that one didn't work out but the next one is going to be fantastic. You know what I mean? You can't say that and keep your credibility. 

DR: 05:40 You can't say that too many times. And there was one occasion of mentioned specifically because this was kind of the end. This was the last straw for me. I'd been going for years, making mistakes, hiring the wrong, having to fix up nurses. So I would come home from my job because I was still doing billable hours. I would come home from visiting a client, I'll come back to the office with wherever it was and look at the work that the bookkeeper had done and then spend the next two or three hours correcting their work before we'd go out. So you just couldn't keep up with that. It was just him as you'd just do it yourself, which is typically where bookkeepers come to that point where they think, I'm working so hard if I was to double my income. So if you're talking about if you're already at 200,000 you'd think, oh, I want to get to 400 or 500 and you think you scratch your head and think, well, hang on. 

DR: 06:40 That means I've got to work twice as hard. Who more, two and a half times harder. There's not, there's just not enough hours in the day and it's an all around systems. And before the last truth, you may visit a gentleman who applied for the position and he actually had accounting experience. So I thought this is great. Um, in fact, I started imagining where my business might go with this guy. I will put, maybe I can start offering accounting services and things like that. He'll be able to do all the financial reporting. This would be fantastic. So before I even sat him down, I thought this has got to be good. He's got experience in the software and is an accountant, this will be perfect. So I told the particular client that I'd found a bookkeeper. Um, he's got to be great. And in those days as well, because I didn't have any assistance for training with the staff, I sat with him and particularly, uh, certainly didn't have any systems for testing them. 

DR: 07:39 So my way of testing them was to sit them beside me in an, in an actual job with a client. And this happened to be an onsite client, so I did everything wrong. So I sat him down in front of the computer and I was sitting beside him. I explained the job, it wasn't particularly complicated and I said, so there's the bills, we've got some payroll. Then I explained what the process was as it's so just get started, start off with the bills and he sat the for the next two minutes looking at the screen with the mass in his hand, rolling around the screen, trying to work out how you actually put a building and I just sat there. I didn't say anything, but I sat there looking at him with this incredulous look on my face and after a couple of minutes I just stopped him and I said, you obviously don't know the soft way. 

DR: 08:33 And he said, oh well yeah, looks like I don't know it as well as I thought and I just have never had one of those moments where you just want the earth to open up and you just vanish off the face of the earth. That was one of those moments because I thought, well not only has this not work, I've now got to go out and speak with the clone and say, oh by the way, yeah, I've just finished off your work. This hasn't worked out with this guy after the very first minute and then go back to him later and say, I've found another bookkeeper. This one's going to be great. You can, you can, can you feel fully? Can you feel my pain? 

MP: 09:22 That never looks good from a perception standpoint and the, you know, you're breaking down the credibility that you have built up with those clients. Okay. How did you repair that? 

DR: 09:34 I had built a lot of, um, Brownie points, if you like, in terms of trust. I've been working with them for several years and they trusted me and they were gracious in accepting my apology. They were prepared to give me another go and I just did everything I could to make sure. What happened was actually after that was that I was absolutely gutted and I was ready to quit. I got paid on the phone as I was driving home, hands frame and basically screaming down the phone just saying, I quit. That's it. This is, this is demoralizing. This is embarrassing. This is just ruining me on killing me. I'm not going to do it anymore. I can't, I'm just not, it's still not worth it. I said, unless we can create a system around the recruitment process, and that was the very next day Pete met up with me and it was actually the only time that he actually sat with me and worked out what the system was going to be because it, it required creating a data farm and working out what we were going to test. 

DR: 10:52 And I needed someone with me to actually brainstorm that process. So He'd ask me questions and I'd give him answers around and go, okay, well let's create this and it needs to have this much information. He basically held my hand in the first version of the skills test and it was a skills test in the data file. So this particular software that we were using at the time, and we created a bunch of papers, so we made up these invoices, we made our payroll information, the created documents so that we could print them out and score them in. The bookkeeper would, would come in and be tested and feel like it was an actual client's job. The thing with this test is that there were trips to, there were traps and they were things that an experienced but people would notice and not make that mistake and an inexperienced bookkeeper wouldn't have any clue. 

DR: 11:49 And we ended up updating that constantly. Pretty much we tweak to tweak, to tweak to twice. I've done the next four years probably until we got it to the version that we've got now in the pure bookkeeping system. So now the system is, it starts with the Ed, the content of the and the wording of the ad where you placed it, a phone interview templates. So you had an assist the [inaudible], those people come in for a skills test. The successful people coming through a skills test. Most people failed a skills test, which was pretty amazing. I thought when I first started doing this, but everyone that failed, I thought, whew, that was a bullet I just don't shoot. That was thousands of dollars of time and money waste potentially wasted on a bookkeeper that just wasn't up to scratch. And then at the end of that, we've got the interview process. 

DR: 12:44 The induction process and the online of the online training program that they've got to complete before they start working for them. So it's a complete system. Um, my advice for the listeners now is that obviously you're not going to have something as complete as that, but what I recommend you do is find some way of testing the candidate in your office, not in front of a client, in on a computer using the software that you want them to use and just do things. Get them to have a look at the balance sheet. Talk to them about the balance sheet. Ask them what to read the balance sheet, what they can glean from that information. Get them to show you how they would into repay wrong. Just test them in some way in front of you before you put them with a client. The biggest lesson I learned was that the ratio doesn't believe a ratio. 

DR: 13:43 Nine don't believe a resume. And the other thing is there's the interview process if you like, ask them to talk about their history, their experience, dig down into questions that might feel uncomfortable. Oh really? Can you explain it so that people make statements, I'm a team player and I can work on supervised and they just throw out all these lines, which is fairly typical for any resume where they have demonstrated their experience as a team player. Ask them how they have shown independence and working with their ability to work on their own. Actual examples of that. They, those questions sometimes feel uncomfortable, but you've got to ask those questions. 

MP: 14:33 And I know from our members that use the Pure Bookkeeping System and the HR system, you know it is fantastic and there's going to be summit. I want to talk about a few interesting things and comments because it's, it's not a little amount of work to go through and set this up and do all of this for a hiring process. It's a lot of work. Yeah. And people complain about the amount of work it takes to actually go through this process and a, what I think is interesting here is that what you actually created, Debbie, was you created a system that was to catch people when they didn't know you were looking because in an empty typical interview scenario, the one that's traditional is that people put out on a job ad. We're looking for somebody. They don't think about what they're writing in those ads and so lots of people apply. 

MP: 15:26 Whereas your writing in the ad is really designed to repel people. The next level is that, okay, let's have them in for an interview. Let's go and ask all the questions. Well, people that want a job, and if you think about it, the people who are likely going to be the worst candidates are going to be the best at interviews is it's just the way that it works. It's natural selection. People that need to really be great at interviews and how and go and find a lot of jobs or it's like it's really easy to find. Someone's like, wow, they really interviewed Greg or their Axialent. Well, there's a reason why potentially that now, none of these things are our 100% it's really just you're looking to put all of the probability of getting a great hire on your side of the table because it says a bit of a gamble, right? 

DR: 16:16 It's a gamble hiring anybody in any business. So what you've done is you stack the odds, you are beating the casino, it's so speak with your hiring process. And one of the things I always say about people that complain about the work is that number one, if you don't like the work upfront in hiring, don't do it because you despise the work that you're going to have to do to clean up after the mass that that'll likely get left behind by having a bad hire and you live that nightmare time and time again until you actually did something about it. The other bit that I really thought was really cool about the system is that you have it. Like it's a lot of work for a potential candidate to go through. And so when people complain about it, it's like this gift. It's like, Hey, I, you mean I gotta do a test? Are you, are you for real? Like, I had been bookkeeping for all these years and I don't do tests. I mean that's perfect. It's like, yes, thank you. Because that's not the person you want to hire. 

DR: 17:21 Yeah. So that is that exact same thing happened to me. I actually had that experience where a gentleman walked in and you could see he was very full of himself, which from the moment I set eyes on it and I'd explained that there was a skills test to do on the phone, which you cause you've got to prepare people. And he walked in like he owned the place and, uh, basically ready to just sit down and start working. I said, okay, we'll just set you up with a skills test. And then he just said exactly, I'm not doing a test. Hello. Oh, okay then, well, uh, sorry. You're, you're unsuccessful. There's the door. Um, you know, off you go. And it was hilarious. It was, we laugh. It's a, when it said a fabulous win, 

DR: 18:05 such a win. So I think for everyone that's listening and, uh, our community as well is that, you know, it's one of those things where yes, it's difficult. Yes, it takes a lot of time, but when you're doing it, just do it with pleasure knowing that it's one of those things that's gonna pay off in great sums in the long run. And that's just it. There's no way around to make this any more simple, nor would you want to, it would, it would defeat the whole purpose. Oh yeah. Uh, and that's, you know, we live in a society that is instant gratification. Let's just, you know, can we just press a button and have a great staff member, please? And yeah, that's great. And you started to talk about it, Deb, I wanted to mention this because I think it's very powerful and it's something on a psychological standpoint that we have to all be aware of. 

DR: 18:53 And that is happy years. Happy years are when you, you want something so bad that everything that people say sounds great. If you're a bookkeeper and you're full up and you're behind and you need to get caught up and it's causing all sorts of stress, guess what? Happy your time is. It's going to happen. And that's a dangerous zone. So it doesn't matter how busy you are, how difficult, please, you know, I've seen it happen so many times where people go, oh, but, but, but, but and higher. It's like, no, they're going to be really great. And they'd rushed through it and they hire that person and then it's defeating. It's crushing. So resist having the happier do the due diligence on the front end and it will pay off in the long run. 

MP: 19:45 Oh yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I haven't heard of that term before. I love it. 

DR: 19:48 Yeah. Well, in the, it's, you know, it happens in many different scenarios that happens when you're, whenever you need something, it's like the happier start to go. It's a fantasy bubble and you know, the pop sound is the, the happy years. Maybe it's like going in the airplane, your ears pop and it's like, oh boy, this isn't, this isn't going the way we want. And, and there are extreme costs. Let's not forget about the costs and the implications of hiring, right? Because we're dealing with your time to onboard them, to train them, to give them all of the necessary resources. You're exposing them to a sensitive information of all of your clients. And then if they go in, they work in and one of your client's businesses. Now you caught that one early on. Had you not done your due diligence and sat with that person. 

MP: 20:40 I mean, it would, you would not have that client. In fact, it would may have gone in a very bad direction and, and then there's all sorts of work and consequences to clean up on. So, you know, hopefully that gives a view that helps our listeners think about this. You know, this is a serious nature and I'm sure there are lots that are listening right now. They're driving in their car and they're going, Yup, Yup, Yup, Yup. Some of, some people may be in this situation all ready where they have a staff member. Now let's maybe a good conversation. Dab Is, let's say there are listeners right now that have a staff member that's just not working. And again, happy years can be in play here where it's like maybe they'll get better, maybe they'll get better. What would you say to that? 

DR: 21:26 Yeah, I've been in that position, you know, before we did this skills testing and everything, many times, uh, in fact, another conversation I had with the licensee end of last week at that, the HR, she had a staff member who has been with her for a couple of years. She only gives a limited amount of work because she knows she's just probably not quite up to it, but she's enthusiastic. She's a bit slow, she said, but I'm not sure. Is she a caper? Refueler, that's what we call them. And I talked to her on the phone and after talking to her, she brought up things that she didn't put in the email. So this woman refuses to follow the checklist that we've called in. The Pure Bookkeeping System just, just doesn't do them. Just keeps forgetting to fill them out. And for me, I talked about what's not negotiable and for our licensees when they're following the pure bookkeeping system and their staff are expected, they do the training in that and they're expected to follow the system. 

DR: 22:33 If they don't, if they passively resisted, you know, they might say all the right things. They might say, Oh gee, I'm sorry I forgot to fill that out. But if they just keep doing that and don't change, and that's what I was saying to her, that's a non negotiable for me. So I said to her, think about what is then negotiables and non negotiables. Quality of work is not negotiable. This woman was particularly slow, so it was costing her money. She eventually got the work done that she made mistakes because she wasn't following the checklist. And so by the time the end of the conversation, she actually said, I need to let her go down. So in the email, she was saying, do you think I should keep her? She's good at, you know, I like her and she's a nice person and she's got a good attitude. 

DR: 23:21 And by the end of our conversation, all this other stuff came up and she realized that she needed to let her go. And the footnote to that was that this week she sat down with the woman and said, here's what, so here's what's going on that your just not filling out these check this and you're missing things and um, you're making errors because of that and it's, it's impacting on my business. What can we do about that? And the woman actually said, I don't think that I can live up to your standards. So they ended up parting ways. So that was as of this week. So I think if you had staff that you have your doubts about, then trust your instinct with them. The thing is, in my business, I tried the trainees. So we tried that model of let's get someone who knows nothing will work, has just done some kind of basic certificate or basic course in the software or something like that and I will teach them my way now. 

DR: 24:23 We tried that and it's too slow. I needed someone to hit the ground running. I needed someone that was already experienced, had practical experience in a fairly broad range of experience as well. The problem is with if you try to train a trainee, then that could take you a couple of years. You could spend the best part of two years training that person and it's possible that at the end of that they'll say, thanks very much. That has been really great. Now I'm going to go and work for someone else. Or the other thing is that you still are tearing your hair out after a to two years because they're just not up to the skill levels that you need. You haven't got time when you pull up. You've got staff, you're running a busy business. You really don't have the resources to be able to try and people from scratch 

MP: 25:20 Absolutely. That's a philosophy that works in large organizations where they have the resources and funds to actually move people through a training progression. And so, you know, there's people out there that have done this and they've been successful doing it. And I think we can bring it back to that casino analogy is that if you hire somebody that has no experience, it sounds good. It sounds, yeah, this makes sense. Let's train them from scratch. But you're, you're putting the odds back with the casino because it's just, if we talk about the hundreds and hundreds of bookkeepers that we've worked with, it's very few. And there's, you know, I've, I've worked with some that, you know, they make a really good hire and it's great and it's almost, I don't want to say that they lockout because they have a natural ability to pick talent, but there's very few people that are like that. 

MP: 26:13 So if you look to that person as an example, you're putting the odds back with the casino. It's not that it won't work, it can work, but where do you want to have your odds with you? Or with the casino, and so that's, that's great angle Deb, and something to think about. There are other examples too that I want, I want you to bring up that you've used, I know you've used in the past and shared around hiring people that want to be accountants or want to, you know, share a little bit about some of the flags that were there for you and the whole hiring process. 

DR: 26:48 Yes. Oh, well I discovered from experience, cause that's another kind of training. Some people and I certainly thought that would work as well. I've tried that hiring accountants who have just finished their degrees at a notch or they might even actually be in the middle of their degrees. The problem with that is that they actually don't love bookkeeping their accountants or they want to be accountants. They're training towards being an accountant. That's where they see their future. In three to five years. They'll say, yeah, I want to be working for a big accounting firm, or I want to have my own practice or something. They don't want to be doing bookkeeping. They don't love bookkeeping. Typically accountants don't love bookkeeping, they don't love the eye level of detail that we have to go into. And they'll use you as a stepping stone and also they won't hand the pocket being experienced that you need. 

DR: 27:36 So you still have to spend time training. So we actually have it in the system that one of the things that they get scored down on is if they are either training to be an accountant or they’re qualified but they want to remain in the accounting field. Now, specific distinction I want to make here is accountants who then choose the bookkeeping industry to work. So we have lots of licensees and there's lots of bookkeepers outside of pure bookkeeping who have done their degrees and maybe worked for an accounting firm for a number of years. Um, they've had children and they don't want to go back to that high pressure job in an accounting firm. They want to run their own business, work from home around the children and, and bookkeeping suits their needs. That's completely different. They're great to have onboard to have as part of your team, they are focused on bookkeeping. That's what they're doing. They're growing a bookkeeping business. So that's a distinction. It's not like we're wiping out the whole accounting industry. 

MP: 28:39 No, absolutely. And I think there's a key message here that in the coaching world, we talk about moving towards and moving away. So yeah, if an accountant that's training to be an accountant, they're moving towards being an accountant. And so to come and work as a bookkeeper, it's really going to be temporary because they're moving towards being an accountant. It's just like if you had somebody that was leaving a job and they wanted to come and work for you, well there it might be that they're just, they're trying to get away from that job and so coming to you, it's not that they're moving towards you, they're actually moving away from something else, which is not an empowering place. And it's likely not going to go well. Yeah. But the example that you used around an account that said, you know what, that's not for me. 

DR: 29:27 We know lots of them. They want to be in the bookkeeping profession and do that work and they love that work that's moving towards. So we think when you're interviewing and you're, you're looking at potential team members, where are they at, where are they coming from, where are they moving? Fantastic view of what's actually coming towards you. 

MP: 29:55 Yeah. That's great Deb, this has been absolutely fantastic. I want to thank you on behalf of all the listeners for sharing. Again your time with us very generously and I know we're going to have you back on chocolate block as they would say in Australia. But before we go, I just remembered that I wanted to ask this question that I thought would be super valuable for everyone because you know you're in Australia, we have bookkeepers in North America, so Canada and the United States, vast countries. Right. And what about these small towns that don't have a big talent pool? How do you, what, what do you do if you are having a tough time finding a talent pool? And I know I'm putting you on the hotspot here, but I know this has come up as a question before and I don't know that there's an answer, a great answer, but I think it needs to be addressed. And I think it would be valuable to the listeners. 

DR: 30:38 There was, um, I mean I'm not from a small town, but I'll give you one example. Uh, my experience around a period of time, um, in my business where there was a drought if you like, of, okay. Because I couldn't, I couldn't find one. So I didn't, like I was recruiting, I desperately needed a bookkeeper and we recruited for probably about six months, which was really unusual. And before that, I've been recruiting whenever I needed to and got the applicants and they went through, and it's not that we didn't do the applicants we did, but they just weren't any good. They not even worthwhile or even the ones that skills tested, they failed and that sort of thing. So I seriously, I had a discussion with Pete because I realized kind of with a bit of a shock that my business goals and my business growth was dependent on being able to constantly source good bookkeepers. 

DR: 31:37 And what if that's not possible? I have, I have, I used them all about, got them all, you know, starting to doubt the whole model that I had and whether it actually was going to fall apart simply because I couldn't find good bookkeepers. And when I decided to do was yes, okay, that's something worth thinking about and contemplating. But it didn't help me to be wallowing in that. So I just kept doing what I was doing and went through the process and continued advertising the next month and the next month after that conversation I advertised and three bookkeepers turned up who skills tested fabulous fabulously. And I put the three of them on at the one in one month. It's not something I would necessarily recommend by the way, because you know, a huge job to train them and get them all up to speed. But they ended up staying with me until four or five years each one of those. 

DR: 32:37 So two of those three ended being most specialists. So that was my experience when I had a bit of a drought. So just keep going through the process would be my advice. Yeah. But the other thing specifically in Roma, if you're in a remote area or a regional area or a small town with the way the industry is moving at the moment to being online, I would definitely be considering that as maybe a model if you're not already online. So I'm talking about QuickBooks online and zero a are the two major players out there at the moment. Cause if you've got your business online, if you've got your clients where you can access them from anywhere, potentially you could recruit a bookkeeper from anywhere as well and you'd have a different model. You'd have a different relationship. It would be remote, but I would be looking at how am I going to solve this problem rather than it's not possible to recruit. It might mean changing my business model. It might mean changing clients over to an online program so that I can recruit people outside of my area. That's happening more and more and something that is one of the big changes in the bookkeeping industry is the whole remote accessing client's data files, which is working well. 

MP: 33:53 Yeah, that's no, that's fantastic thoughts, Deb, and thank you for, for sharing that. And I think it brings up a whole bunch of new topics that I want to bring you back for. One is, you know we talked about it, you, you've had book bookkeepers work for you for years. You know, what's the, what's the secret behind that? I think we want to know about that and as well we're going to have guests on that. We'll talk about remote bookkeeping and where the industry is going and there are some fantastic things that are happening. Those pose challenges as well because face to face is where relationships happen. And so it's a balance of being able to secure business, build relationships, did a great job, find the resources to do the work and then just keep that system rolling. So lots of food for thought, lots of great conversations coming. I will, and I'll have fair Devin and say thank you so much for joining us today. 

DR: 34:43 You're welcome, Michael. Sure. Debate. Yeah. 

MP: 34:46 Awesome. So everyone for the listeners out there, you can find us at Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com please go on to iTunes. Leave us an honest review. Let us know what you think. Uh, if you go to this, uh, Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com/reviews, it'll tell you how to do all of that. And as well, if you've left us a review, you can sign up, we'll ship you for a limited time, a free copy of the successful bookkeeper, a book that I wrote about Debbie Roberts and Peter Cook and their journey. And there are all sorts of great information inside of that book and we'd love to get that out to you. It's absolutely free for a limited time. There's no credit card necessary or anything like that as well. If you'd like to ask Debbie a question, go to our website, the successful bookkeeper.com and just look for the button where you can ask a question and you can record a question right there. Let us know what you'd like Debbie to focus on and talk about or, or what you'd like us on the show to address. What are your challenges? What are you going through, what do you need? And we will do our best to bring you the resources, uh, and helping you on your journey to being a vast successful bookkeeper in your life and in your business. Thank you everybody and take care. 

DR: 35: 15 Thanks. Bye for now. 

MP: 35:55 Bye Bye.