UPDATE - TSBK - Episode 115 - Ron Saharyan.png
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Eradicate entrepreneurial poverty.

That is Ron Saharyan’s focus.

He is the co-founder and managing partner of Profit First Professionals. He is also a thought leader in business cash flow management, a speaker on the topic of small business profit and a host of a podcast called The Profit First Podcast along with his business partner, Mike Michalowicz.

There’s an ongoing uprising change in the accounting and bookkeeping sector.

And from Ron's exceptional vantage point of working with bookkeepers, accountants and business coaches, he will be sharing his thirst for embracing change and pricing renovation.

During this interview, you'll discover...

  • How to be a value-based professional

  • How to create personal pricing

  • How to develop a profit first mindset

To find out more about Ron, visit here.

For Ron’s Facebook page, click here.

To check out his book, Profit First: Transform Your Business from a Cash-Eating Monster to a Money-Making Machine, go here.

To reach Ron, email him at rons@profitfirstprofessionals.com.


EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

Michael Palmer: 01:02 Welcome back to the successful bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a fun one. Our guest is the Co-founder and managing director of profit first professionals LLC, which he runs along with the author of profit first, Mike McCollough. They also co-host the grow my accounting practice podcast. Ron Saharyan, welcome to the podcast.

Ron Saharyan: 01:25 Thank you, Michael. I'm excited to be here today. MP: 01:30 Well, it's great to have you here and it's coming right off of seeing you and your wonderful business partner at profit con.

RS: 01:40 Yes, our global conference. I'm very happy that you were able to make the trip down to Canada and, uh, check it all out.

MP: 01:47 It was, it was an absolute thrill. I mean, what an amazing group of people that you've put together. I would say, I would say a tribe of people that are committed to auratic, hating entrepreneurial. I've got it on my mug right here. Poverty. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I just love that. I absolutely love that. And we're going to be helping our listeners eradicate entrepreneurial poverty today on the podcast with you. But before we get too far into that story, I'd really love for you to share with our listener a little bit about you and your career story leading up to today. Sure, no problem. And again, thank you.

RS: 02:27 Thank you for having me on here. Uh, back in the day, I started as an investigator investigating felony ones. Uh, murder rapes are sins for DC. Then I got in, didn't really want to do that very long. It was pretty dangerous. But I learned a lot, learned a lot about people in perspective, then was recruited to take over and get into more of a staffing world. And over the years I grew staffing organizations with a niche specialization, whether it's specializing in pharmaceuticals, specializing in media and entertainment. And then, uh, after basically taking a company to its all-time high in revenue consultants on the street leading a great sales team and organization. I was told we were done scaling. And so, you know, one of the things was, is, man, what am I, what am I going to do here? I've been busting my butt for the last couple of years only to realize that, uh, we were done scaling, but I've always known that there was something larger out there for me. I mean, I think a lot of us in corporate have that feeling that there's gotta be more, there's gotta be more. Well, you know, I was blessed with the opportunity to join the Mike McAlary weights and create profit first professionals in the support of his book profit first. And so that's my calling. My calling is to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty by teaching the profit first methodology to accountants, bookkeepers, and various different coaches.

MP: 03:53 It's, it's wonderful. I remember reading the book that Your Business is based on and just thought, wow, what, what a new fresh angle for entrepreneurs.

RS: 04:04 Yeah. Well, you know what, the whole, the, the, the premise of the book isn't really new. It's, it's kind of modeled after grandmother's envelope budgeting methodology. It's not accounting, it's not bookkeeping, it's cashflow management. And our whole belief is if we can really help the business owner pay themselves first to create a war chest of cash for Uncle Sam three have a focus on profit with, even if that profits three 3.5% the business owner can pay down their debt. They can celebrate that the health of the company, or more importantly, they can hire when people, you know, when business owners, small business owners can hire people, have jobs when people have jobs. It really does relieve a lot of the stress from the home life.

MP: 04:48 You absolutely bang on. We Love, we love that angle here. And there's just far too many entrepreneurs out there working way too hard and doing really great work and many times world-changing work not to actually say at the end of it all, wow, I really built something and profited all the way along. It would certainly make it a lot more fun. And you do a lot of great work and your, your community is now doing great work. You up to like 350 members strong I think globally. And it's just really beginning, isn't it?

RS: 05:22 Yes, exactly. A little over 350 globally. The book profit first is translated in 16 different languages. Uh, we have certified firms everywhere from Japan to Mexico to Caribbean islands all across America, Canada. I mean, it really is a, a wonderful way of life, if you will. And the premises to smash the doctrine of sacrifice. It doesn't have to be, you know, as difficult as everybody has had it prior. And by simply implementing the methodology, you're on your way to, you know, eradicating your own poverty.

MP: 05:59 Absolutely. And so a listener I can assure you of one thing, it's not many things that I can assure you of this confidently is that profit first. The book is an absolute must-have book to have on your shelf and to be one of those books that you actually have read because it will, I know for certain it will impact how you talk to how you deal with how you interact with your clients. And so I, I really wanted to get that Alloway and say, look, this is a book that you need to get on your shelf and, and actually read it. And uh, and I have that on the advice of so many of our listeners already because down there there were a whole bunch of the successful bookkeeper, podcast, community members and as well are pure bookkeeping community members were down there. So this is fantastic stuff and I, and if you haven't heard of it yet, which I'd be, I'd be surprised if you haven't, but if you haven't then this is a really great opportunity. And we have Ron here to give some of your journey hearing you speak at the conference. What I loved was your take and story and thinking process around pricing. And I mean I found it hilarious that you, your nickname is ob one Kenobi.

RS: 07:16 Thank you. No, and thank you very much for the shout out on the books. It really means a lot to us. And a, you're doing a wonderful thing.

MP: 07:25 Yes, I have met many of your members are our members as well. You have the systems. We have, you know, a branding and a methodology that helps them. So, uh, I, I really believe in th the synergies here and yeah, thank you. I love pricing. I mean pricing doesn't have to be as difficult as everybody makes it. But one of the things that I, that you know, I really want to share with your audience that pricing needs to be personal. And I truly believe that when you make pricing about you and what you need for your family to live the lifestyle that they need as well as making it a win, win for your customers, well then that's how you get there. But it really does start with understanding what you need to earn in order for you to know what you can charge.

RS: 08:09 I completely, I completely agree. And I like the idea of making it personal. I think when you make something personal and you're clear about what you need, it changes the game for the person actually going out and doing it right.

RS: 08:22 And I see a lot of firms asking, well, my competitors charging this, my competitors charging that. Well fine. That's okay. You know, one of the keys to pricing really starts off with the value conversation. And that's taking a page out of Ron Baker and ed classes playbook. You know, the value conversation. It's not about how many bank accounts or transactions that they have. It's about did the business succeed? Did the, the, the business pay you what you wanted it to pay you, you know, do you have the systems and processes in place in order to succeed? What do you want to Redo? So really starting off with great questions is the foundation for receiving the higher value price that you'd need to deliver world-class services.

MP: 09:15 It was like you were on the recent podcast. I did actually with Ed Kless. It's just a, it's actually so it's so perfect. It's like, you know, at, for our listener, likely there'll be very close episodes, listeners probably going, did Michael plan this because Rod's talking about ad now and he, that's what he was talking about. It was that first initial value conversation.

RS: 09:38 Absolutely. And that's awesome. And one of the things is, is you tie the value pricing conversation into what we call income targeting, which is reverse engineering what your top line needs to be in order for you to earn the owners pay following the profit first, um, percentages in the book. It really is gonna make it that much difference because in my opinion, true value pricing is lifting up the hood of the accounting software, seeing really what's going on under there, seeing if it's complex, maybe they need a, you know, clean up, I prefer to call it a renovation. The reason why I like calling it a renovation, because sometimes if you're talking to a prospect and you're, you say that they need a cleanup, well a cleanup is associated with something that a child messed up and you might be talking to the person or the person's spouse that actually got them to the point where they are. So a lot of what we, we train in what we do from pricing to sales, everything is from a behavioral perspective. So by simply just calling it a renovation, it's a lot easier and you're not kind of saying, hey, you made a mess. Previous business owner

MP: 10:57 that fright there is a piece of gold. Solid gold.

RS: 10:59 Thank you. Yeah, that right there. You know, put a Towel Essex around that bold, you know, highlight or underline it. Language is so important. And often, even myself, I catch myself saying things, but I don't actually catch myself. That's the problem. Uh, I say things that it's like, that's not what I actually meant. My mouth is moving things, words are coming out, but it's actually not the right words. Uh, and we have to think about what we're saying, especially if it's a new relationship. Like you say, if you walk into a new customer and we're, you've had your having the value conversation and a cleanup comes up yet that could take it in a really bad direction. Right?

MP: 11:41 No, absolutely. And what I've also learned about pricing that makes, um, you know, things very easy to, to layout and where people make mistakes as people don't necessarily consider heuristics. Your risk six are mental shortcuts that ease our cognitive decision making. Basically, it's a rule of thumb. And so the example that I use is, you know, when, when people are choiced with buying something, if it's one or two choices, it's take it or leave it. If it's four or more, three or more, it's overwhelming. So there is studies that have said that the ideal number of options is three. And I think most of our audience knows that, but I see the mistake where people are putting their low pipe price package first and they're putting their luxury package last. Well, what's happening there is you're using the anchor effect in a reverse way.

RS: 12:41 Um, and also we are conditions we've been brought up to basically think that whatever the price we see is more than we feel it should be. So if you go to a car, you see a price. Wow, that's a lot. It's a sticker. It's sticker shock. So one of the things is is that, and you want to negotiate that. So when you're laying out your packages, you know when you have the first package first, regardless of what the, you know, the fee is going to be, they're going to say $250 a month and they're going to say, oh, okay, well that's more than I thought. Then they're going to go to the middle package and it's going to say seven 50 maybe. Wow, that's even more. Then they're going to go to the, the luxury package and they're going to say $1,500 oh my God, I can't even work with this person.

RS: 13:29 So what you're doing with laying it out and that methodology is actually causing a little bit more pain for the customer and making it harder for them to work with you. So what we recommend is flipping it a little bit, uh, having the luxury package first, having the luxury package first gets the, the sticker shock out of the way, and it anchors them on a price that is certainly going to be higher than your other packages. So when heuristics comes into play and you have your pricing laid out, well with the services, the workflows and pricing differences, they're gonna look and they're gonna see that laundry list of services in the luxury, and they're going to say, holy cow, that's an awful lot. I don't need all those bells and whistles. It's overkill. Then they're going to look at the price and they're going to say, wow, I certainly don't want to pay all of that.

RS: 14:18 Then they're going to look towards the middle package. And that package when done right, should be what 90% of prospects are looking for. They're going to see the price and it's, it's going to be less than what the luxury package. So you're actually providing relief. So what they're doing, what we're doing is using that to move into the middle saying, ah, you know what? I like all of these. It's pretty much what I'm looking for and who it's not as expensive as the luxury. Then you go down to the base package. This is where also I see some firms making a mistake. So some people make the uh, the base package too fat, too many great services that they look at it and they say, Huh, that's pretty good. I could do with some of that. And it's a little bit, you know, less expensive.

RS: 15:09 Now that's wrong. What we want. Is it so skinny in the minimum services you're willing to provide for a monthly fee that says, you know what, I need more than the base. I need more than that. But at least if I wanted to start working with this firm, I could. But what's happening is where you are done properly, you're using the Poles to luxury into base to bounce people into the middle. The middle package is really the package that you want to focus your targets and also should be containing the services that you and your firm truly enjoy offering.

MP: 15:46 And it, this is really interesting. I can tell you the, I experienced this just today. I was looking at, it was a a, it was a software product, but I looked at it and it went from low to high. And it, it's interesting how [inaudible] exact experience I went from. Okay, it's that price and then it's like, but, but it just got more expensive, more expensive, more expensive. And whereas if I would have looked at the bigger price, I would have gone the opposite direction. I can tell you right now, my experience, Bang on to what you said.

RS: 16:17 Yeah, no, absolutely. And we see it, uh, the large, the large companies, you know, they spent a lot of money figuring this out. So you know, you look at Starbucks, they listed in the same way you look at Wendy's, you know, or any fast food restaurant. They have these options and they list them in a similar fashion. And so by having your packages laid out this way and the pricing structured this way, you're providing relief and you're tying in heuristics and previous purchasing behaviors. It really does. Then you add in the fact that this is also about you. One of the recommendations that we, we like to suggest with our members is have a floor for each one of those packages. So let's just say the floor for the middle packages $1,000, well, that's the minimum amount of money you're willing to accept to provide company x with those specific services.

RS: 17:13 Where I think value really comes on in is understanding the customer's needs, understanding what their pain is, understanding what they want to achieve and reduce, and then lifting up the hood to see what's really going on in their organization. I mean, if they're a $5 million company, while you're probably going to be wanting to charge them more than a thousand dollars a month for the services contained in that middle workflow. And now additionally, if you want to charge them less than that, you could still do that. But it really is a combination of assessing the entire landscape of what's going on in the business, relying on what the answers to those smart questions you ask were tying it all together and providing a customized experience for the, for the prospect. And that's really key. It's the experience that we want to change in the industry.

MP: 18:10 Mm. And so you said that there's a base, now I'm hearing you correctly, they, they've published, is that the base price that has been published in that metal option or is it just one mentally that that is their base?

RS: 18:23 It's one mentally that is that. Is there a, absolutely, because one of the things is, and if you show what a price is, I believe that you're kind of stuck to that a little bit. Even though if you put on your website that the pricing is a to start at a thousand and then it's only going to go up and you know, most people don't read the fine print done, unfortunately. So you know, I learned a long time ago that, that call that ad in that for that car that I really want that Mercedes if you will. Is it, is it, is it $99 a month, right? It's right. And so, of course, I want power windows, power seats and I might even want a radio in there. They might want it to run. Yeah. Might want it to run. Right, exactly. I may not want the AMG package. I may not want all the bells and whistles there, but I certainly don't want the base model. Right. So what's the safe option? The middle option. Okay. So you know, following suit, we need to do that as well.

MP: 19:24 Got It. And so with the pricing on these packages, this is not put out publicly on the web, like on a website, correct?

RS: 19:33 Correct. Because what's going to happen as I read that paper and as you alluded to, we're going to, they're going to come and say, yes, I'm interested. I saw that your monthly services are $1,000 a month. This is perfect. Sign me up. Okay, well, you know, I'd need to have a little bit more of a conversation with you to learn a little bit more and you'd access to your QuickBooks and you can this. Then you lift up the hood hoodies. Say, Oh, okay, well I'm going to need to rent it. You're going to need a renovation. Then you're going to take a look and you say, okay, well do you want bill pay? And you're, yes. Then you're going to say, would you like this, this, this, this, and that. Next minute, you know that thousand dollars is 2,500 and the person that walked in the door saying cheese, I thought I was getting into $1,000 and then now everything I'm talking to this person about, every time I opened my mouth, the price is going up. I'd rather not even have that. I'd rather, you know, look to provide custom pricing for that individual based upon their needs and my needs.

MP: 20:31 Got It. And so for, for our listener that has a pricing page or packages, what's your recommendation? Is it just find a way to get them to engage through something else other than price or do they have maybe some services? What's, what's your recommendation there?

RS: 20:48 Well, you know, the, you can't really go wrong here Michael. I mean it really depends on what you're trying to build. And if many businesses use a price attraction in price discrimination. Okay. when you're putting prices on your website for the bookkeeping, my experience is that's price attractive. You're trying to attract the customers that can afford that. Okay. And how I relate it is the restaurant industry. In my world, I like to say there's three types of restaurants. There's the fast food restaurant, there's the mom and pop restaurant, and then there's fine dining. Each one of those. You can get a burger with some kind of bread around it, but one of them is selling 99 cent hamburgers and they're displaying 99 cent large on their windows. The next is a mom and pop restaurant. Okay. It's still a hamburgers, but maybe their burger is $15 okay. Then you go into a Ruth Chris for a high end steak house.

RS: 21:48 Well, maybe their burgers are $50 and they are pricing. Okay. You putting their prices on their menus, the outside on the windows down. That's using price discrimination. So what we'd like to do with our members is ask them what type of restaurant do you want to be? What type of accounting firm do you want to be? Do you want to use price attraction? Do you want to use price discrimination? Or you can provide customized pricing. Okay, so there's price attraction, price discrimination, PR, customized pricing. We prefer customized pricing, but the added concern with customized pricing is that you do have to have filtering in place. If you are going to be providing concierge type of services or you don't want the folks that only can afford 99 cents for a hamburger coming into your office and then screaming and yelling at you. Why you know that accounting services are $10,000 a month.

MP: 22:47 Absolutely. You know, it, it brings up a, a memory of, in our, uh, sexist, successful bookkeeper Facebook group, someone had told a story about they, they went in, they had a discovery call, they put together a proposal, they presented the proposal and, and at the end of it he's like, Whoa, I thought bookkeepers got paid 12 bucks an hour.

RS: 23:11 Not Real ones.

MP: 23:14 That's right. The GI Joe, the GI Joe Doll bookkeepers. Right. RS: 23:18 That's fantastic ones. So, you know, I'm sure that's probably not the first time you've heard something like that. But when you said the, the um, being, making sure you're filtering, you want to make sure that you, you've not brought some sitting in front of somebody who's expecting the 99 cent Burger when you've got that $50 one waiting to be served up. Right?

RS: 23:40 And so filtering can be done and automated way through your website, whether you have a kind of form that fills things out that is explaining that this is the type of customer that you're working for, the type of services that you provide, the industries that you serve, you work with and you can put in their revenue. You know, many of our members only work with companies that are under, I mean, sorry, over 500,000 in yearly revenue and that they're in a specific domain using a specific software. So you can say that there's nothing wrong with that, you know, but still people are going to squeak on through. Right? And so one of the things that we like to do that's work really well is you have an online application that gets the basic information and then you know, we send a another email following up with additional information about what it's like to work with us.

RS: 24:34 And also we indicate what the restrictions are. Okay. And it's all in a video, it's all in this. So to be a profit first professional need to have two years in business in a minimum 75,000 in turnover. And we share that before it even gets to scheduling with one of our team members to have that conversation. Now, Michael, what the people still will slip through, and I am a big believer that if somebody asks you what your pricing is, you have to give them an answer. Okay. I, it frustrates me. I was, I was looking to buy a fence to go around my, my yard and I'm talking to the fence guy and I'm saying, Bill, you know, get, you know, how much is this going to cost roughly? I'm not holding your feet to the fire, but give me an estimate. And you know, I have an acre of property and I was, was looking for just aluminum fence.

RS: 25:28 Nothing fancy smancy just something to keep the, the deer and the kids in the animals out. And it's like, well, I don't think they're the tears, the animals and the kids though. Yeah, we have, we have a lot of kids in our neighborhood and they didn't no fences and they all run all over the place. Um, so, so yeah, I'm like, you know, give me an idea. Well, I don't know Ron, you know, you have a lot. I'm like, she and I would base, how long have you been doing this, Dave? 20 years. Based on your experience, can you at least just give me a ballpark? Am I playing in $10,000 fee? Uh, park? Am I paying 15, 35 what? I really can't tell it. And I was like, you know what? Whatever. And so, um, it, it left me in a foul mood that I would somebody else.

RS: 26:18 It's like, just give me an idea, man. And so when, when people ask us, you know, hey, hey Ron. And it happens all the time. So sometimes they just want to know what the investment or they say price. They don't realize that sometimes it's an investment to be a pure bookkeeper and utilize this, the systems and processes you have, like that's an investment. It's not an expense. It's not a cost. It's an investment. And same thing when working with a profit first professional well as becoming one. So, but again, people will ask, what's your app? What is it cost? I say, well, it's a little unfair for me to simply state a price without understanding what your needs are in sharing what we're doing. But since you asked, and I want to provide you with an answer, my elite customers invest $2,000 a month to work with us.

RS: 27:08 Now I'm not saying that that's what your investment is going to be. It might be less, but that's what the investment for our elite customers. Hey, would you like to continue the conversation? Love it. Right? And so one of the things too that I've learned is that, you know, flip it and apply it to their particular industry. You know, I was coaching one of our members and she was working with a landscaper in the landscape. It was like how much? How much, how much? And she, I told her to say, well, how much to cut my yard? Yeah. Can you just tell me, is it $50 a cut? Well, what if I have five acres? You sure it's still $50 a cut? What if I have tons of terraces? What if the slope of the hills is crazy? So you want to, you want to frame it and reframe it in a way where you're talking to them and sharing how it's a little unfair if you were just to ask them how much it costs. Same with painting a house, the same thing. It works in every industry.

MP: 28:08 It's fantastic. You have given such great goal just right there, which is, it's exactly what to say, tweak it as you will make it your own. But it's a very, a very clear and a powerful way to answer a question that I know all of our listeners deal with as well as myself. I mean, you're not, you're not selling anything if you don't have that question come up and so love, I love the way you've answered it.

RS: 28:35 Right. Thank you. And when they ask hourly, what's your hourly rate? What's your hourly rate? I kind of Giggle at that a little bit and I ask our members to also giggle at that and say, you know, no, I don't do anything I hourly, I'm far too good, far to experience this ain't my first road. Yeah. I'm a value based professional. The value of working with me is in the results that you're going to get.

MP: 29:06 Beautiful. We're just going to write all these out. We're going to get everybody practicing the way they say them and they're gonna. It's gonna make a big difference for their business of h pure gold. I love it. Now you also talked about that middle package being the one you love to deliver. How do you know which one? How do you know what goes in all these packages?

RS: 29:27 Sure. No. Great. Great question. Thank you. I look at it as resume writing. Okay. One of the things we want to do too is a, an analysis of what our current workflow is and so what we want to do is on on onyx or something, you know, you list all of the services that you provide to every single customer, all of the services that you provide to that you've provided to customers in the past, maybe even services that you've never provided before. Okay. Then you go over to e. That's the basis of the luxury package, right? The, the, the foundation of it. So we're getting it all in there. Just like a resume, throw everything in there under the sun. Then we're going to the base package, skipping over to the middle and go to the base package, and then what we're doing is what are the minimum services that we're willing to offer on a monthly basis, minimum than not, not a, I can do this, this, this, and that.

RS: 30:26 It should be only a couple of things. That's the basis of your base package. Now, this is a pretty cool exercise. Uh, one of the things that we like to take our members through, you list all your services from top to bottom, all of your companies that you're working with from left to right in excel. Then you start placing an x into each one of those fields where you're providing services to those customers. What you're going to see when you analyze it is that you probably have a few customers that you're providing, you know, maybe two, three customers at the most that you're providing a ton of services for. Then you're gonna look and you're gonna see me. There's only, there's a couple of companies that you're providing very little services for, but you're going to look at the grouping in the middle. Then you're going to analyze and see, okay, the majority of my customers are receiving the majority of these services.

RS: 31:31 That is the basis of your middle package. Then you add to the middle packages the services that you want to include. Maybe it's profit first. Maybe it's another type of consultative, uh, offering. Maybe it's insurance, who knows? Whatever it happens to be. That is your ideal package, but you've done the analysis to support that the customers you already have. 90% of what you're providing is in this middle package. Now, one of the things is is that most people are conditioned to pick the safe option and so people shouldn't be looking to sell the luxury package. If somebody does pick it well, it should be priced so high that you say. Awesome. Okay, but the safe option is the middle package and so by doing an analysis of what your current services are for the customers at your curtains currently, that's the basis of the middle package.

MP: 32:28 Love it. Such an interesting conversation. Such a valuable conversation. There's a lot here that, this is a definitely an episode. I recommend a re-listen, take notes

MP: 32:40 and we'll provide those notes for you as well. Let's say you could look at the show notes but really to just, I mean if you just follow the the the flow of this conversation, you can create a conversation, you can handle some objections and you can figure out how you're going to go to market with pricing. Now obviously it sounds probably easier than it is and that's why I recommend going and checking out. Brian, your, your podcast, you have probably a lot more of this content and as well you have a great community can just tell by being on this call. You have a wealth of of knowledge and are probably an incredible coach helping people and so I, I'm sad that we're up on time because I think we could just keep on chatting, but is there anything else that you'd like to add in before we, we share with folks how they can get more information from you?

RS: 33:31 Yup, absolutely. One last tip. When you're doing your client services workflow analysis and you look at it and it looks like somebody fired a shotgun at it, that's a problem. It's going to hurt trying to scale. That means you as many customers as you have, that's how many bosses you have and w it to streamline your workflow is a great way to scale your business. So if it is all over the place, look to protect your workflow a little bit better and control, you know, what the services you are providing for those customers.

MP: 34:07 It's a, it's a, that's a, I'm glad you brought that up because I think that can be one that anybody that sort of started from early on in their business at a time where a client is a good thing. It's like it might be a hodgepodge of different clients, payroll tax all over the place and you're absolutely right. It's, if you think about it, anybody that's trying to do a whole bunch of different things, number one, it's going to increase the time to do things. Your ability to be an expert at it will diminish and you spreading yourself thin. So you're saying figure out what it is you love doing. Figure out what you're great at. Put those into your packages and get rid of the rest and essence. Create, create the job that you enjoy doing. Yeah, love it. So love it. I Know Ron, uh, it's been great having you on. What's the best way for, for our listener to get more from you?

RS: 35:06 Sure. They can email me at Ron s at profit first, professionals.com that's the number one way. You could also go to profit first professionals a.com. Check out the website. There's a, a field that says become one. Love to have a conversation to learn more about your business and share what we're doing over here.

MP: 35:29 It's beautiful. You're doing great things. I really consider both yourself and Mike to be heart-based entrepreneurs making a real difference in the world. So it's a privilege for us and our listeners to have, you know, thank you very much my guy.

RS: 35:45 Truly appreciate it and keep doing what you're doing. You guys are kicking butt as well. Thank you. We love what we're doing. We're having a ton of fun.

MP: 35:55 Awesome. Well, that wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources. You can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time, goodbye.