EP105: Jennifer North – Why You Need The Risk Management Checklist

Risk Management.

The forecasting and evaluation of financial risks is vital to the life of your bookkeeping business.If you don't pay attention, your business will suffer.

Our guest, Jennifer North is a certified professional bookkeeper who developed the Risk Management Checklist. 

She joined the Institute of Certified Bookkeepers USA (ICB USA) as an Administrative Manager. 

The checklist along with her wide range of skills and experience, both in marketing and accounting, are now helping ICB USA in its efforts to lead the future of bookkeeping certification in North America.

During this interview, you'll learn about...

  • The Risk Management Checklist

  • The list of key mistakes to avoid

  • What value and credibility you can add to your client

To get in touch with Jennifer and receive a free copy of The Risk Management Checklist, email her at jennifer.north@icbusa.org.

For her Facebook page, click here.

For her LinkedIn page, visit here.

To further investigate ICB USA, go here.


Michael Palmer: 01:17 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I'm your host, Michael Palmer, and today's show is going to be a good one. Our guest is a certified professional bookkeeper who joined the Institute of Certified Bookkeepers USA as an administrative manager using her wide range of skills and experience both in marketing and accounting. She is now supporting the ICB USA organization in their efforts to lead the future of bookkeeping certification in North America. Jennifer North, welcome to the podcast.

Jennifer North: 01:49 Thanks very much, Michael. I'm really happy to be here.

MP: 01:52 Yeah, it's great to have you. And I know we've had lots of conversations, uh, in the past and I'm so excited to have you here so that those conversations can actually be shared with our listener cause they're so valuable. But before we get into all of that, can you tell us a little bit about your bookkeeping career leading up to this point?

JN: 02:12 For sure. I started my own bookkeeping firm, uh, about a decade ago. And the prior to that I had been in the marketing world and I always felt that I was missing something. Uh, the numbers side didn't always make sense to me. So I did go back to school for Accounting and decided that I wanted to hit the ground running with a bookkeeping business. So I started, first I started in north accounting services, which later became umbrella bookkeeping solutions. And I still run that today, but I do it as a consultant now. So I, I moved away from actually being, I'm the forever bookkeeper for my clients and I've now moved into sort of a management level where I help support other bookkeepers in their businesses now.

MP: 02:51 Beautiful. That's excellent. Well, I love your background. I mean the marketing, the bookkeeping, a what a combination. It's not often that you have such a strong background in marketing, uh, and as well bookkeeping. So I think that's extremely interesting in terms of your viewpoint of business and, and business as a bookkeeper.

JN: 03:11 Yes. Well, I, the topic today that I wanted to sort of delve into, which relates to both marketing or all areas of business marketing and bookkeeping is risk management. So that's what I was hoping to sort of get into because I think that it's really important that bookkeepers who are leading their, their clients down the path of success that they understand for their own selves and for their, their clients, how they can manage risk and avoid some of the mistakes that bookkeepers kind of fall into are the traps and pitfalls of running your own business either as a solo-preneur or somebody who is leading a team. Uh, there's lots of things you can do to minimize risk.

MP: 03:51 Absolutely. Well, tell, tell us, give us some background. Like how did you get into actually doing and focusing on risk management?

JN: 04:00 Well, it became sort of a natural piece of what I was doing already. I, you know, I love the, first of all, I love your book, the successful bookkeeper and I reviewed it before our podcast session here today and I, I love chapter eight because it does dovetail nicely with what we're talking about. It's the 10 mistakes bookkeepers make. And I love the first quote for Eleanor Roosevelt that you quote, say, learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself. I am a big believer in learning from the mistakes of others and trying to avoid having to make the mistakes yourself. So early on in my career as a marketer, I, I certainly made a lot of mistakes and uh, you know, as you, as you grow and as you mature and as you get into your business more, you realize that there's the right way to do things and then there's the maybe not the right way to do things and why go the long way around all the time.

JN: 04:52 So I often try to find the right way and the right solution the first time and through, you know, just lots of experience and years and years of working with, you know, hundreds and hundreds of different businesses. There's, there's definitely a list that I've put together that key things that keep coming up that repeatedly people continue to either avoid or they just, they have no knowledge of or they don't know or understand that they could be, you know, minimizing those risks. So I feel that that's really important for me as a bookkeeper or somebody who consults with businesses. I feel that it's important that I help businesses not step on the landmines or avoid the land mines before they step on them because it's far easier to avoid a problem and then to actually have to live through it and experience it. So that's, I think how I came to it is that I just became passionate about it through all the business work that I've done. And I'm now at the point where I believe that it's a value that I add to any client relationship. I, I know what I, I know what I know, and sometimes people don't know what they don't know. So helping them through that and helping them prevent is far easier than having to fix mistakes or go back and actually, you know, where the embarrassment of the, the mistake and then have to, you know, fix it. Uh, and, and going through the pain of that

MP: 06:18 You know, it's one of those common sayings, which is a stitch in time saves nine. And I'm sure a lot of what you're going to share with us today is, is that right? It's like do a little bit now. So that down the track it's not going well.

JN: 06:33 That's right. That's right. And I think that there's a, there's probably a few key areas especially, you know, focus towards bookkeepers, that bookkeepers are oftentimes on the front lines. They're, they're dealing with our customer and they obviously have their, their duties as a bookkeeper to keep, keep going and keep the business going. But every area of the business touches bookkeeping. And it's really important to see the big picture as well as the micro detail and try to, you know, certainly keep your business strong as a bookkeeping business. If you're running a bookkeeping business or even if you're a bookkeeper in an organ, a larger organization, you can add a lot of value by bringing the conversation out. So, for example, if somebody is running a business and they don't have errors and omissions insurance for example, certainly, uh, you don't have to have errors and omissions insurance, but it's very handy in the event that you do make an error or there's a mistake somewhere and it costs a lot of money. Uh, you, you want to avoid, you know, being financially devastated by a lawsuit. So an errors and omissions insurance policy would protect you from that. That's just one example of something that I would highly recommend. First thing that a bookkeeper is starting their business to look into that it's, it doesn't have to be that expensive and certainly you can grow the policy to suit your needs and a budget as you grow in your clientele.

MP: 07:54 Beautiful. And is there, is there kind of like a, an amount in terms of what, like what does something like that cost in terms of, uh, an average bookkeeper?

JN: 08:06 Well, it can run a hundreds to thousands of dollars a year. It depends on the coverage and policy that you'd go with the, I would say the average, you probably want to get at least a million dollars. I think that that covers a small to mid size solo operation and you want to make sure you know that the, the pieces of that policy also cover the people that are working for you as well. So again, it's hard to say right now I get a special discount because of the organization I'm with. But the, I'd say the average is somewhere in between five to $1,200 a year.

MP: 08:40 Okay, great. Well that's not that much money considering what it's protecting you against. Uh, and it sounds like it's one of those critical things that uh, as a business you should have.

JN: 08:51 Absolutely. I think it applies to board members and nonprofits. Also, you want to make sure that accurate sitting on a board, you want to have insurance against anything that you know, you're taking responsibility and accountability and that whenever you do that, there are legal risks that you should be well aware of and go in with eyes wide open.

MP: 09:11 Great. Now you, you actually created a whole checklist around risk management to help entrepreneurs in bookkeepers. Like what are the big mistakes you see them making around risk management and beyond like not having insurance?

JN: 09:32 Well, I'd say that there's many different areas. It depends on the nature of the industry you're working in and so for example, if you were in the restaurant industry, I know some bookkeepers who specialize in the restaurant industry, you want to make sure that their employee safety training is in place. You know that's not really related to bookkeeping, but it is a business risk if they haven't followed the proper safety training or they haven't reviewed fire escape plans with their, with their employees. Payroll is another example. Payroll for a lot of businesses, you want to make sure that you're deducting the right amounts and make sure that the right questions are asked at hiring time and that the right paperwork is filled out. There's a lot of compliance issues with government legislation to make sure that you're up on that. The latest changes in legislation around employee management and employees and laws around how to treat your employees. So I see that as a big, big sort of, unless you've had employees, if it's a new area for you, you really should consult a professional and make sure that you learn what you don't know about that cause. That's a big area of mistakes that I see.

MP: 10:34 Absolutely not knowing, not knowing something is huge and there's so many people out there that would know that or have that information. So seek help.

JN: 10:43 Yes, exactly. Yeah, that would be, that would be the, and having a certified bookkeeper at your side, if you're running a business, I always recommend that my clients, you know, work to making sure that they have the right team in place. And part of that is putting right controls in place. Unfortunately, our industry can fall victim to fraud and fraud is really 99% opportunity and it's removing that opportunity and making sure that you're protected. And if you have employees working for you that they're, there are separation of duties and controls put in place to make sure that fraud just can't happen. And that's another big area where I see big room for improvement across the board and all industries and all businesses that there should be a fraud protection plan in place. Something that is, you know, give it some thought once a year even that who's got access to the funds, who's got access to a transferring monies and who's got access to writing the checks or doing bank deposits. All those things should be really evaluated and make sure that you do have a good culture around making sure that everyone's informed that you have policies and procedures around protecting the company and their assets.

MP: 11:49 Yeah, it, it's, I mean I feel like this episode is all about cliches are cliches, sayings, but locs keep honest people honest. It's true. It's true. And I think that, you know, what I've developed over the years, and this is what I talk about whenever I'm consulting with clients or educating bookkeepers, it's creating this risk management mindset. Having a mindset when you go in, where identify the problem areas meet. That's the value that I bring when I, when I go in and I do a discovery process with a client or with other bookkeepers, we sit down and we can talk about where are the holes here, where are the gaps? It's always going to be different. It could fall in the line of financial, it could be technology risks. Another big thing I see across the board, people not backing up their computer data. I've, I've seen it time and time again. Somebody is using one computer station and they've got their software on that one computer and it's not being backed up regularly.

JN: 12:43 Well, we all know what the risk is, is that you know, when, when the power goes out or something goes wrong and the computer motherboard gets fried because somebody dropped a coffee on the keyboard, then we're, we're at risk of losing all of our data and all of the hard work that the bookkeeping manager was doing. And so it's important to make sure that that is dealt with and that you look at all areas of business. So financial is one area and this is part of my checklist. We talk about the financial set of risks. We want to make sure that the reporting is accurate, it's a risk if you're reporting and that that accurate, the accuracy isn't there. So you want to make sure that you've got real checks and balances, making sure that, um, banks are reconciled on a timely basis and that you are reporting in tandem with that reconciliation process on a regular basis.

MP: 13:29 Technology, having password protection on different, uh, devices and making sure that you're not going to be hacked, for example. That's another area, you know, making sure your antivirus programs are up to date. Another area of risk is human resources. We talked a bit about payroll, making sure that their job, the job descriptions are clear that employees understand their roles well, that they're there, they're submitting time sheets on time and that it's not creating problems with the cashflow. And then there's also the health and safety side and again, insurance. So there's different types of insurance. There's office insurance, there's health insurance. Another big area where I think that owners of businesses should really pay attention to is what do you do if you get sick and you have to be away from your business for an extended period of time? Do you have a plan for that?

JN: 14:19 It's all about just thinking ahead. Obviously, we'd love to have a crystal ball and we'd love to know the future, but we don't. But planning for some of these key scenarios that happen time and time again. A owner gets sick and has to be away for a month. Do you have backup? Do you have a plan for your clients if you have to be away from your seat for that long? That's another big area that I see for room for improvement in a lot of businesses. Do you get any pushback from your businesses that you're working with when you're talking about risk management? Do you ever get pushback because it's, I could imagine

JN: 14:52 there would be the sense of Ah, you know, there's so many things to worry about and yet we, you know, even the things we know we need to worry about, there's like a whole host of things that we should be worrying about as business owners that sometimes it can be almost overwhelming.

MP: 15:09 Absolutely. This area can be overwhelming and I'm very careful when I am introducing some of these concepts. If they're new to the business owner, especially in new business owner, I would, you know, tap it. Typically how I would approach this as I would have a special risk management session. It's sort of opened the door to the conversation. I present my checklist for review. The review is, we pick maybe a few things on that list that we could do immediately pick the low hanging fruit, you know, so to speak. Pick those things that are not going to cost a lot of money, that don't require a lot of time, but it's just a bit of thinking and introduce the concepts slowly for sure. I get pushed back and usually that's a sign to me. If somebody is resistant to doing any risk management work, that probably they're not the right client to be working with me because I want to work with people who are taking that kind of thing seriously.

MP: 15:58 We want to avoid the pitfalls of, like I said, fraud or anything like that. And if a business owner, uh, really is resistant to that, then it's kind of a, it's kind of a, an alarm signal to me that they don't have the right attitude towards their business because everyone does need to consider these things. Uh, you know, properly. A lot of the contracts I get, um, they're higher level and they're, they sometimes involve government and government regulations and, uh, government, uh, opportunities are usually brought forward because there's been some sort of, um, compliance issue or some sort of risks that wasn't managed properly. And I'm often brought, uh, books that have to be, you know, um, brie Donner or there's been an emergency situation where they really need the data that they, they, they thought they were getting but they can't get it. Now I can see the past and say, well, this should've been done. This should've been done, this should be done. That's where I get my risk management checklist from is all of these experiences that I've had and all of the things that have gone wrong. I, I accumulate that knowledge and I, I hope to share it for the benefit of everyone and hopefully people are receptive to it.

JN: 17:13 Yeah, I think so. I think it's interesting, you know, the pushback and I, I think that is just from my own experience around, I have a great friend who is a contractor and he, you know, he's the type of contractor that when he tells you what it's going to take, it's exactly that and he's going to get it done right and all of this good stuff. And he's got a very high attention to detail and, and sometimes, you know, when we're, we're doing something or working on something, he'll be like, you know, look, you've got five years left on this and that's going to be a $20,000 repair. And it's like, I don't want it. You know, it's like, I almost don't want to hear, it's like, oh, but it's the truth, right? Sometimes the truth can sting a little bit, but it, you know, after I've sorta swelled up and say, okay, yeah, we're going to have to take that into consideration.

MP: 18:00 So I think it's a great message from you and that when working with owners is lightly get into it, make sure that the context has been set and, and that they're, you know, slowly introduced to this thinking because it can be, I think, overwhelming but so valuable. And I think it's, from what I'm hearing and just listening to this, I think it's just such a, an added value to clients because they're not, if they're not thinking about it, nobody is. And this can be an area that can, can be a probably open up to a whole bunch of opportunities to be able to be more consultative with your clients.

JN: 18:37 Absolutely. And it can be what are those things that certainly you did do, you dig in and you go deeper and you find that, wow, there's a blind spot here. Nobody even knew this was a risk we didn't realize. And so the conversation is steered and now you're a leader. You're in a POW and a powerful position because you know something of green value and you can use that to your benefit to build credibility with your clients and to gain their trust. So I think that it's really important that people, uh, have this risk management sort of viewpoint or you know, attitude and take that and use it for the benefit of both their client and themselves. I mean, anything you do for your client that helps your client is going to help you in the end. If you help them become a more stable business, if you help them understand the reports better.

JN: 19:24 One of the areas that I think could use improvement sometimes in different organizations is making sure that communication even is improved. Uh, there's a risk sometimes where communication breaks down and that's where you see sometimes the bookkeeping relationship breaks down and then the bookkeeper gets blamed for things. And so that's another area where we try to make sure that when I'm working with bookkeepers, I know the areas that can can lead to um, you know, miscommunication and misunderstanding. Sometimes the bookkeeper is the most knowledgeable person in the organization about finance. And so walking that line and communicating that clearly and making sure that that's done well is also a skill that's required. A lot of bookkeepers are beyond the, the technician level and the, so we're talking higher level opportunities for, for bookkeepers who are certified at the highest level. Those people understand their duties and, and, and want to be a leader for the business. And the organization. And, uh, the more education they can get around this, the more professional they can be. It's only gonna help them in their business in the long run.

MP: 20:30 I totally agree. And I think it's the future of, of, of bookkeeping. It's, it's, you know, business owners need that level of person that is a steward of their, of their financial situation so that they understand what's there. There's transparency, there's clarity. And with that, with all of that, they can make better business decisions. And I think often in the marketplace, people think that they, they, they, ah, I don't know if the words marginalized, but they, they simplify the concept of bookkeeping. And you can see in this conversation that this is a very complex, uh, practice and there's a lot to it. And so what's required, excuse me, a frog in my throat. All this talk of risk management, I'm like afraid, um, is, is that going into the, the, the work and taking on this responsibility is, it comes with, you know, I believe that the bookkeeper should prepare themselves and make sure that they're, they're educated as much as they can.

MP: 21:35 And that's, that's why it's like belonging to associations like ICB USA, uh, where they're, they're learning, they're keeping up on their skills, their, they're expanding their knowledge and wisdom because that's what the owner needs and wants is while a lot of the times they don't even know that they want it, but they, they certainly need it. And that's part of the education selling and education process. But it's really going in and saying, what, where do I need to be prepared? What information do I need to have? And making sure you have all of that so you can deliver this level of service to small business.

JN: 22:10 Absolutely. And a lot of bookkeepers haven't even thought of this area and it's, it's something that they can bring to the client conversation, adding value and building that trust and you know, earning the respect that, you know, a lot of bookkeepers aren't just doing bookkeeping, they are doing a lot more and they're often relied on as a source of information for a lot of different, you know, areas of the business. And so it's really important that you do know the current legislation. There's a lot of areas that you can specialize in and that's another area. You know, another thing I would say is that sometimes it's good if you don't know something and a client's asking you, it's better to just say, I don't know the answer, I'll find out for you rather than, you know, make up the answer on the spot. That's something that doesn't win you credibility if your answers wrong.

JN: 22:55 So you want to make sure your, your answers are correct. One of the things that you did speak about with previous podcast guest Louie prosperity from our organization, you talked about full capacity getting, getting further, you know, in your business and not taking on too much that you're at total capacity, 100% capacity or even 120% capacity. It's a, that's a big risk for bookkeepers as well that I find that a lot of bookkeepers take on too much and they've spread themselves too thin and so the, they could have not done that by choosing the right clients, making sure that they were monitoring their time better. So there's things that you can do to minimize those common things that almost every bookkeeper has to learn on their own. It's better to not have to learn, you know, through the school of hard knocks. You know? It's better to learn as you can through other people's and that's really what I love to try to do is share those things and prevent bookkeepers from making mistakes. I even made, I've made a lot of mistakes in my career and most of them have been, you know, the in private, so that's good. The worst is when you make a mistake publicly and you know, you really have to have a plan for that too. How do you, how do you manage when you've made a mistake, what do you do? How do you bring that to the business owners attention if there is, has been a mistake and communicating that very carefully. You can also when you credibility as well.

MP: 24:23 Yeah, it's this whole conversation is about thinking, right? Thinking about and looking at and understanding and so even around the, the practice management, if you will, a person's own practice management. Who are your clients are, you know, what's this leading to? Whenever that conversation comes up? I think of the movie Jerry Maguire. And have you seen the, have you seen the movie? Yes. Everybody's, I say, I asked that question because I want to bet everybody say, who hasn't seen Jerry Maguire? I'm like, yeah, it's a great movie. I love it. So you know, in the movie the Jerry McGuire, the character is, is saying, look, we're going to do, we're going to take less clients. We're going to uplevel our service and support. I think that is such an interesting conversation. It's such a, it's, it's the opposite of the Walmart model. It's, we're going to go boutique, you know, bespoke and charge a lot more money for it, but deliver x, x exponential more value to, to the clients. And I think that if you think about it, your conversation is, you know, if you're over capacity and you're running around, I mean how can you really service the clients and do a job that's going to have them go, Ooh, I love the work you're doing and I want to keep you want to keep you as well as we're free to all the people that I know. I mean it's not going to happen if you're not able to deliver high level of service and value.

JN: 25:44 That's right and I've made that mistake myself. I've been over capacity. I know what it feels like. The stress is not worth it in your book on in Chapter Eight it's the 10 mistakes bookkeepers make. I love that. The last two mistakes because these are time and time again. The biggest ones that I see all the time that the no systems, number nine you have no systems having no systems in place. If you had a proper system in place, chances are you're not going to get yourself into the trouble of being over capacity. And then number 10 no exit plan. This is a big one. And I think that one of the things that again, has sort of naturally or organically happened in my own consulting is that I work with my bookkeepers and my clients to make sure that I, if anything ever happened to me, and I'm the only one with access and keys to the, you know, to the whole accounting system that I make sure that if anything ever happened, they can pick up and carry on without me.

JN: 26:38 That is a really important one. Having an exit strategy and making sure that I'm not essentially, because I'm the only one who knows how to do or access the information that's required to run the business. It's really, it's a big responsibility that bookkeeper. And I think that sometimes people make the mistake of, well, if I give all the information away, I might lose the client or I, I'm afraid that, you know, they'll hire someone else. And you know, to me, I think that that attitude is more operating on the assumption of scarcity versus abundance. There's lots of business out there, lots of businesses who want to work with really high quality bookkeepers. And so, um, you know, that's not really a valid worry in my opinion. I think that you, uh, have to look at the best interest of the company you're working with. If they, if it's a client who has also a team, you want to make sure that the whole team is aware of where to find things, how to access the information in the data.

JN: 27:31 Obviously keeping a integrity of the system secure and sound. That's another thing I see oftentimes a too many cooks can spoil the brew in bookkeeping and you don't want too many people having access to the books and being able to alter transactions and things like that in the past. So you want to put, you know, closing dates on, on your QuickBooks file for example, or, or whatever. So there's just, these things have to be thought of. They just have to be really thought of. And really the person who's in the leadership position is the bookkeeper and they have to think of these things and adviser clients on them. On an ongoing basis. And this isn't just a onetime thing, you, this is a constantly evolving conversation and you're always looking at the gaps. And certainly you don't wanna spend all of your days, you know, managing risk, but you want to think about it and maybe devote once a year, this is my slow time, I'm just gonna, you know, brush up my, my systems and make sure that everything is, is in check and that my, my policies are in order. Everything I have, you know, is, is up to date.

MP: 28:29 I love it. I love the conversation. And the whole conversation around leadership, you know, is, is valuable. It's what we, it's a kind, I think it's a context shift or a shift of mindset in that if you think of the small business as you know, you're there to help them. I mean, be really like really think about that and walk in the doors as I am the Stewart, the shepherd of this, this, this businesses finances. I mean just that mindset shift and the context that you walk in with it, it's gonna translate really, really well to the right customers. Not Everybody is gonna want that. Like you said, right. Somebody, but I don't want to talk about list management if you stay in risk management one more time. JN: 29:16 Yeah, I don't, you know, it's like, guess what? We're not meant to work together.

MP: 29:21 And that's beautiful. That's a beautiful thing. It's like you, you said if your clients like giving away, you know, making sure that if something were to happen, you know, making sure that they're set up to move on without you. I mean, if they move on without you, that's great. It's meant to be, I mean it's, it's, it's thinking it's a different mindset. I mean, maybe it's not meant to be, but it's like this, and I'm going to give one more, cause it's been this, that episode where we've got these sayings, but if you, if you love something, let it go. If it comes back to, you know, the love was true. Right? And so that's an abundant, it's like abundance. Love is abundant. There is no limit, no cap, nothing to it. And so just let it go. And, and new things will open up new views of the world. Will open up when you start to embrace those things because the right clients that want to work with you and value what you do. If you're truly giving great value in doing the things that we're talking about, they will stick with you til the end of time.

JN: 30:18 Absolutely. And I think that, again, this is a conversation that evolves. There's always new technology, there's always a new ways for, you know, unfortunately there's people out there trying to hack into systems. There's new ways of, of that happening, making sure that you understand and can guide your clients on the best softwares, the best things that they can do to protect their business and their interests. It's only gonna help you in the long run, you know, and that that is, this is a long game like this is, this is something about looking forward to the future, making sure that you're proactive. It's a mindset for sure. A mind shift for a lot of businesses and bookkeepers and you know, businesses are, are relying more and more on the bookkeeper for this sort of service. So I think that it's a, it's a good timely conversation for a lot of people to, to engage with their clients on.

MP: 31:05 Yeah. So absolutely great. Absolutely a great conversation. And there's, like you say, there's so much more to learn and it's going to be evolving. And on that note, what's the best way, now we've mentioned this checklist, what's the best way for our listener to get in touch with you or find out more about you and the work you're doing around risk management or the ICB USA?

JN: 31:27 Well, certainly, uh, this risk management checklist will be made available to all of our members at ICB USA. And if anybody who's listening to this podcast wants access to it, they could simply email me and I'd be happy to share it with them. And, uh, my email is Jennifer.north@icbusa.org.

MP: 31:47 Beautiful. And we'll have that contact information and links and whatnot in the show notes. Absolutely. And, and also, Jennifer, I really want to thank you for, for bringing up The Successful bookkeeper book sometimes I forget to talk about it and share about it. I mean that's the name of the podcast, but we do have this, this wonderful book that I wrote.

JN: 32:08 Um, it's a great book. I recommend I, it's a great, it covers all that. All the topics we talked about today and and more. And it's again, it's if you fail to plan, you plan to fail and this book is a good start for somebody who wants to get a planning on their business and your whole pure bookkeeping system is part of that conversation too.

MP: 32:27 Absolutely. And even better news, the books free, if you join our community, you get the book free, just pay the shipping, very small shipping fee. We'll ship that out to you. So if you don't already have a copy, get one of those. We'll have a link it as well. And again, Jennifer, thank you for mentioning it and highlighting it. I think it's a, it's always good to make sure we're letting people know the things that are available to them. Well, Jennifer is, this has been great. I know already. I want to have you back to talk about some of the other wonderful things that you're doing in your own practice, but as well with ICB USA and just again from our, from our listeners. Thank you for generously giving us your time today. We'd love to talk to you again anytime.

JN: 33:10 Michael, it's been a total pleasure. Thank you so much.

MP: 33:13 Thank you. And that wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's wonderful guests and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to the successful bookkeeper.com. Until next time,

MP: 33:28 goodbye.